Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 13:03:35 GMT
,,As I noted above, my replacement was described as "hand picked", so you know they may well have (I assume) attempted to pick a good one...as they had 20 days to do so. The replacement was 72g heavier (2 1/2oz) than the original, or 41.2oz (and roughly 1 3/4oz heavier than the KOA advertisement). Still 4mm at the guard...yet 4 1/2mm a half inch out and continuing for some distance....have you seen such a thing?''
Never heard about that. Now it is getting creepy. The more reason to check the tang - nut - pommel fit.
If the tang is 6mm wide and about 4 mm thick, there may be threads along the 6mm sides while the rest of the tang end is quite flat, without threads. So, the tang has only half the threads needed to hold the blade to the hilt. This would be a best case scenario. Worst case would be a 4+mm thick tang all around, held in place with copious amounts of epoxy. My guess is we will see a lot of the former. I will check mine shortly and report here, with pictures.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 15:25:30 GMT
The deed is done and I have invited member and co-founder of the Sword Construction Database Findlithui to have a look at what I found. For the database see here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/40975/sword-construction-data-base1.CS clearly designed a construction a la Darkwood Armoury. DA uses this same type of nut to make swapping blades, bated to live and vice versa, easy. That said, DA tangs tend to be quite beefy and are made with extreem care, as they must be to make this type of construction safe. What I found here does not, or barely, cuts it. The pommel nut. The thinnest part is threaded on the inside. It takes barely 9 turns to remove this nut. The middle part sits in the pommel. That fit is quite good. As you can see here, the entire hilt assembly just shoved right off. Once the pommel nut is gone, anything is possible. See that piece of wood sticking out of the guard? The grip is made for a 6mm blade cq tang and they just shimmed it. A bit. With a measely shim like this the grip will start to roll in no time if the sword is used for cutting. Once the shim and the grip have dried out that grip will be lose even when the sword just sits in the rack. This is a big nono and could cause trouble for CS in the future. Clearly ALL parts are made to accomodate a 6mm blade. The tang pass through in the guard and the mouth piece are made to fit a 6mm blade. Both have the same width. The tang goes from 4+mm at the shoulder to 4mm AT THE THINNEST POINT. It then swells to 5mm at the start of the threads. Half way into the threads it swells to 5.5mm and the last bit, the bit that counts is 6mm. NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE. This is weird. Here you can just see the head of the threaded part of the tang. Yes, that is how deep it sits in the pommel. What I do not get is that CS clearly immitated DA with this construction, while there is no need to use it and the grip is not secured at all. Before this the CS construction was so that the grip ALWAYS was held in place on the tang with a nut on a metal washer. This fitted into the pommel and the pommel had the master nut to hold everything in place extra tight. That way, whatever happened, the blade would always be stuck in the grip. While the DA nut is good and safe for people that know swords and know about the DA construction, they just turn the screw when the assembly starts to rattle during sparring and stuff, most inexperienced buyers and that may be what? 80%? , of this sword do not know anything at all, will not hear or feel the signs nor heed them and so could wind up with blades shooting out off the too lose grips and God knows what will happen next. I would like to hear what the CS lawyers have to say. CS reps need to read this. They're sitting on a volcano of hurt.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 16, 2016 16:02:05 GMT
Thanks for the inspection and report. The mystery is, in part, made clearer. When this sword was announced I was excited and it was top on my list as the only renaissance sword that I have is a rapier and the specs looked good. And now, shame on Cold Steel. I expected more from them. That blade hole in the guard exceeds that that Windlass would use.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 16:28:01 GMT
Pgandy, if you want to have it, it is still a nice sword. But for people that know how to make it safe. And let us be frank. A lot of potential buyers are mentally challenged+. They do not know and don't want to know. They want to chop fire wood or dragons, God knows what. Preferbly with lots of beer on the side. Youtube is full of their ,,fails''. In the lawyers parlance: ,, If you want to sell sharp and shiny stuff be our guest. But you better make it as r@tard proof as is humanely possible. Or else ''. If CS is not alerted to what I found, there could potentially be a lot of ,, or else'' waiting to come down on their heads. This sword, right out of the box does not hold up to the criteria of being safe. For us yes, for the average user not so much. One needs to find a way to secure the grip to the tang, fill the grip with epoxy and locktite the nut down so it will not move. Ever. That done, you will have a very nice sword even with the thin blade. And as to the hole in the guard: It was made to accomodate a 6mm blade and as such it is quite well done. Now with the thin 4+mm blades there are problems. One solution is to use copper shims going right along the tang and into the grip and fill, as I said before, the grip with epoxy. If this is not done, the thin tang will have to handle all the stress all by itself and vibrations may loosen the pommel nut. I concur with you that CS should have better stuck with their old method of construction. This new way is asking for trouble in my view.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 16:50:23 GMT
Uhlan
"Edelweiss: my post on BF appeared just above yours."
While overstating the obvious, you deny the opportunity to communicate directly with the CS representative by posting a visitor message on his profile page. There is a Good Bad and Ugly section in BF as well and if you were/are so disappointed with the Company's reaction, maybe you should clearly voice your displeasure. Otherwise it kind of seems like you would rather just preach to a choir. At any rate, thanks for taking the time to register and post there. That would make the two of us (from here) that would bother to do so.
Let me ask both you and Dave a question. As collectors, do either of you spend much time cutting with swords?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 17:00:34 GMT
Where do I find the reps profile page? I thought it to be enough to post the way I did. I think it doubly urgent to talk to them now considering my findings with the build quality. And as to your question whether I am a cutter: No. Should I be?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 16, 2016 17:37:46 GMT
Folks: good bad or indifferent, I had my say. From the looks of it somebody in production is two timin the contractor to milk a lil profit out of a big deal. No QC applied and the horse has left the corral.
I gonna straighten out the blade. reassemble with a stronger shim. epoxy the semprini out of the hole and put a nice flannel red washer over the gaping maw where that shoulderless piece of semprini steel is resting.
Cheerie Bye P-)
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 17:51:59 GMT
Right on!
Cheerie bye to you too. :D
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 16, 2016 18:15:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 18:42:37 GMT
Where do I find the reps profile page? I thought it to be enough to post the way I did. I think it doubly urgent to talk to them now considering my findings with the build quality. And as to your question whether I am a cutter: No. Should I be? Posted earlier in this thread on page 4 , along with a link to the subsection. As mentioned, there is the Good Bad and Ugly subsection as well that is very well traveled. There are also links on Cold Steel to post reviews. Regarding cutting, perhaps an idle question that begs an answer. Darth mentions his grip loosening after cutting, where mine has not. There was the lone report of breakage, with no followup or pictures. Should you have to cut to prove a point on construction? Not really but it does put your own experiences in context. After all, Wilkinson's patent tangs were done so for a purpose. Your disassembly helpful . The opening in the guard needed to be as wide as the threaded section. This is seen on Windlass stuff from time to time. A Windlass I had used 5/16x18 threads and the guard opening much looser than the blade shoulders. A metal shim fixed that, along with long grip shims. My example of these mortuaries continues to be square to the slot, with nothing but grip material showing. A good many threaded compression fits use no "keeper" nut below the pommel or backstrap.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 16, 2016 19:31:30 GMT
Look edelweiss. I have done my fair share. An hour ago I felt this to be a pressing problem, but now I am over that. If CS does not respond then that is their problem. I am not going to put more time into this matter. These people are not stupid and my guess is they know full well what is going on. For me the case is closed. I am not going to chase CS all over the place. As for the compression fit: CS have always used the extra nut on metal washer, which is sensible. They changed to the DA method and one needs a very tight fitting grip and very well made tang with a much longer threaded section to pull that off. This sword has neither. The grip inside is made for a 6mm thick tang. Hence the feeble attempt at a shim. I say the sword out of the box is not very safe and needs some diy to make it so. What others may think is not my problem anymore. I have done my bit.
Cheers.
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Post by howler on Jul 16, 2016 20:50:17 GMT
Cross-eyed smithie? One smack too many with the drop-hammer. Ha, yes indeed....and then "hand picked" by a blind man.
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Post by howler on Jul 16, 2016 20:56:36 GMT
The deed is done and I have invited member and co-founder of the Sword Construction Database Findlithui to have a look at what I found. For the database see here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/40975/sword-construction-data-base1.CS clearly designed a construction a la Darkwood Armoury. DA uses this same type of nut to make swapping blades, bated to live and vice versa, easy. That said, DA tangs tend to be quite beefy and are made with extreem care, as they must be to make this type of construction safe. What I found here does not, or barely, cuts it. The pommel nut. The thinnest part is threaded on the inside. It takes barely 9 turns to remove this nut. The middle part sits in the pommel. That fit is quite good. As you can see here, the entire hilt assembly just shoved right off. Once the pommel nut is gone, anything is possible. See that piece of wood sticking out of the guard? The grip is made for a 6mm blade cq tang and they just shimmed it. A bit. With a measely shim like this the grip will start to roll in no time if the sword is used for cutting. Once the shim and the grip have dried out that grip will be lose even when the sword just sits in the rack. This is a big nono and could cause trouble for CS in the future. Clearly ALL parts are made to accomodate a 6mm blade. The tang pass through in the guard and the mouth piece are made to fit a 6mm blade. Both have the same width. The tang goes from 4+mm at the shoulder to 4mm AT THE THINNEST POINT. It then swells to 5mm at the start of the threads. Half way into the threads it swells to 5.5mm and the last bit, the bit that counts is 6mm. NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE. This is weird. Here you can just see the head of the threaded part of the tang. Yes, that is how deep it sits in the pommel. What I do not get is that CS clearly immitated DA with this construction, while there is no need to use it and the grip is not secured at all. Before this the CS construction was so that the grip ALWAYS was held in place on the tang with a nut on a metal washer. This fitted into the pommel and the pommel had the master nut to hold everything in place extra tight. That way, whatever happened, the blade would always be stuck in the grip. While the DA nut is good and safe for people that know swords and know about the DA construction, they just turn the screw when the assembly starts to rattle during sparring and stuff, most inexperienced buyers and that may be what? 80%? , of this sword do not know anything at all, will not hear or feel the signs nor heed them and so could wind up with blades shooting out off the too lose grips and God knows what will happen next. I would like to hear what the CS lawyers have to say. CS reps need to read this. They're sitting on a volcano of hurt. Jeez, why did CS feel the need to re-invent the wheel with the "new" guard/handle assembly when they could have left well enough alone and simply used a well tapered blade that was thick (6mm) at the forte to lighten and liven up the sword? Great work, btw, as I hope someone sends your post to the powers that be.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 17, 2016 5:15:31 GMT
Thank you Findlithui for your observations. I have posted this sword in the Sword Construction Data Base with my comments. If you would like to add your comments there too, please do so.
Edit: I see you already posted your comments in the DB. Wonderful.
Conclusion: Like Findlithui says, this is a kit sword. Forget about the 6mm problem. Anyone who keeps his thin bladed sword should take heed and fix this thing with epoxy and locktite. Out of the box this sword is not in optimal condition and I for one would not use it until all rebuilding work was done. Of course the same work must be done with 6mm bladed examples. I am surprised and a little sad that CS let this sword lose on the market, the way it is build. I own a few CS swords and they always were up to spec and safe out of the box. That was what one paid for. I hope this is a hickup and stuff like this does not come to light again. It takes years to build a good reputation but all that work can be undone in the matter of a moment.
Cheers.
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Post by darth on Jul 18, 2016 1:49:04 GMT
I'm getting real pissed off. Sounds to me like I am going to get the same $$#$% problems back? If so I am, tempted to send it back." Send be a broadsword, this is an unsafe piece of semprini. I told you people my teenage son uses it and you want to give me a wood shimmed sword? Send me the broadsword and I'll be done with you and you with me because if this broke in my son's hands, I'll sue you for his bad dreams."
Real pissed. Can't they just tell whatever 3rd world factory? " We said 6mmm, now do it or you won't get paid!"
I'd rather wait 3 months and get the sword right, than get a POS I have to do surgery on that I am not set up to do so more $%#$#$% money and time. This is bullsemprini.
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Post by nddave on Jul 18, 2016 4:33:08 GMT
After reading this thread I searched Youtube for any of CS videos cutting with this sword, didn't find one. Hmmmm, wonder why....? Too bad for those that bought one, well at least there's always Hanwei for a moderately decent Mortuary Sword sub-$300 as Windlass's new one looks to be a heavy dud. Might be better constructed than the CS though.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 18, 2016 5:42:22 GMT
Clearly the sword is not up to usual and high CS specs. These high specs are what one pays the higher price for. Something has gone very wrong at the QC department. It MUST be repaired as described above. It is not safe for use and darth should indeed make sure his son does not use it as long as it is in this sad state. I have been mulling over the mechanics and I think I am not far of the mark: As we can see, all parts are made to fit a 6mm blade. I know that Windlass sometimes makes a tang as seen above that swells at the end. In such cases, from what I have found on some of my swords, they drill a hole through the grip for the thick part of the tang and (This is important) cut the grip to fit the thinner tang. So what you see looking at the guard end of the grip is a lets say 4mm slit for the tang with a 6mm hole smack in the middle. I hope you can follow this. This means that the tang sits fairly snug in the grip, as it should be. Now, in this CS case, the guard is cut for 6mm, the grip is cut for 6mm. It has a 6mm+ wide channel for that 4mm thick tang. In principle this means that the tang has no support whatever until it reaches the pommel nut where it is threaded in for 9 turns. It is free to move. So they, whoever made this sword, banged in a small piece of wood in the grip to thighten things up a bit and to make the sword go boing when one strikes the blade. All is well. Is it? No. Two things are going to happen. That measely shim is gonna move, it will dry out, whatever. On my sword I had no problems sliding the hilt assembly right from the tang once that nut was off. So there was play already. That shim was not sitting very thight. This is problem one. Now for problem two: Okay, the grip is shimmed. That still leaves the guard to move around. Hit the cutting stand a few times and it will shift. Since the guard is connected with screws to the pommel and the pommel is again made to fit a 6 mm tang, there is room there. Which in turn means that the moving guard might move the pommel, which will put undue pressure on the tang end, just where it goes into the pommel nut. This coupled with vibrations from the blade, travelling unrestricted, up the tang, will in time snap the tang right under the pommel nut. The same will happen if that shim gives out. With the shim out of the way, the tang moves free and will snap just under the nut. That blade is going to shoot out of the hilt. As it is now it has the same build quality as a three piece, $12,95, Walmart katana set. Stand included. Let that sink in for a moment.
I hope what I say here is clear. Filling the grip with epoxy is not enough. The guard needs to be shimmed with some good copper shims so it cannot move and it sits in line with the blade. And I would inspect those shims after any cutting action. One should do that anyway. And yes, we all have the right to be very angry here and make a stink. KOA, who are selling this sword, should be notified too. Selling this sword as battle ready and they do so because they, like everybody else, rely on CS good name and standing, is not very wise. CS should have gotten the memo by now and for their sake, I advise them to take all swords back. If they do not, sh@t is going to hit the fan sooner or later when parents of some speared kid, with a savy lawyer, discover that build and construction are way below par. And there are hordes of ambulance chasing lawyers out there. So, who's going to send KOA an email?
Cheers.
Edit: I contacted William Swiger. Asked him on how to proceed without dragging SBG into the mire. So, hold all emails to KOA for now please. Unless, of course, you would do so in a strictly private manner.
Cheers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 7:13:33 GMT
Look edelweiss. I have done my fair share. An hour ago I felt this to be a pressing problem, but now I am over that. If CS does not respond then that is their problem. I am not going to put more time into this matter. These people are not stupid and my guess is they know full well what is going on. For me the case is closed. I am not going to chase CS all over the place. As for the compression fit: CS have always used the extra nut on metal washer, which is sensible. They changed to the DA method and one needs a very tight fitting grip and very well made tang with a much longer threaded section to pull that off. This sword has neither. The grip inside is made for a 6mm thick tang. Hence the feeble attempt at a shim. I say the sword out of the box is not very safe and needs some diy to make it so. What others may think is not my problem anymore. I have done my bit. Cheers. A question about your other CS swords you have taken apart. Are the threads sae or metric? Is this mort truly 6mm or 1/4"x20 tpi sae? Curious minds and all that.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 18, 2016 9:21:59 GMT
All India made swords are Imperial as far as I have encountered, not metric. When I meassure I get 6mm, but I do not have a digital system, so it might be 6.1 or 6.02 or 5.99. A metric nut will not fit anyway.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 18, 2016 12:34:08 GMT
It sounds like a production problem presented between the drawing board and manufacture and the manufacturer made a patch to use up the existing parts already manufactured. Rather CS was completely aware of the true extent or not we will never know. No doubt they were aware of the over sized hole in the guard but did not do their homework thoroughly. That reminds me of another incident with CS a few years back concerning a new dart for their blowguns. It was advertised as a multiple dart. The idea was one could shoot a single dart and have multiple darts in the air similar to that of shot from a shotgun. As well as I remember the original design used a sabot. CS even had a preproduction photo of it and failed to change when the actual dart hit the market. What the released looked nothing like that photo in the least. CS did change the photo sometime after the dart was released to the market. The dart was an utter failure and the vendors with their money already invested continued to market it until their stock was depleted. I just checked CS site and did not find the sword listed. I am short of time so maybe I overlooked it. www.ltspecpro.com/Category/4_0/Swords.aspx
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