Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 25, 2016 17:43:45 GMT
The above picture shows an after lunch Polo match. They wave BBQ pins around and Rupert is ordering large beers for his buddies.
Dave and I had some discussion about this ,, sword ''. For one, it pissed me off quite a bit that CS advertises this thing having a thickness of 6 mm. It hasn't. Since these blades are hand made there could be some variation, but 4.6 mm is ridiculous. This blade starts at the POB of Daves original. I see 6 mm as a bare minimum. The 4.6 mm blade thickness means that the tang at the point of max stress is only 4.6 mm thick too. And they call that Battle Ready? Against what, if I may ask? Mice? It is not for nothing that originals and I have enough of those so I can check, start at 7 mm abouts for the hunting knives, though some are much thicker than that and the sabres and the rest? Well to round it off a bit let's say 9mm going up to 11 mm and down to 8. Thick blades under the guard means sturdy and thick tangs at the shoulders. Now that's battle ready. No. I am quite sure this CS model handles quite well, but for me the numbers say ,, Gloryfied wall hanger able to cut pool noodles, maybe''. Personaly I would not trust this thing. Which means that most of my replica swords are banned to the wall too. Most certainly the overly heavy thin bladed two handers. You may say I over react. I think I am realistic. I liked this CS at first sight and I still do, even with that enormous basket and that impy blade and I am glad Dave helped me to get it at a reasonable price.( Thanks again Dave and darth too, for the Midway link ). I like that Sabla too. The package is really compelling. Maybe I even buy it. But I have decided already that when I do buy it, the first thing I will do is to dump the blade and fit that hilt with either a good French M1821 or a French M1829 blade. That would make a super nice sabre I think. And safe too. Thanks for the review Dave, really.
Cheers.
Edit: Another thing just hit me. I see the Cromwell and the Mortuary have two lips under the guard. I like to see those as anti torque devices. From what I think I see in Dave's pictures the CS blade fits cold on the basket. I cannot see whether there is an inlet for the blade shoulders. If there is no inlet this would mean, I think, that the blade is free to torque any which way it wants. With that thin tang that could mean inviting trouble. Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 18:08:17 GMT
I had to pull out my calipers again, as I had initially found the blade stock thickness closer to 6mm but I must have had a skewed hold on the calipers when I got mine. However, balancing at a fulcrum (table's edge and tape measure) I still get more like 3.75" at the pob. At any rate, a very neutral feeling sword to me but with a good bit more blade mass than the basic Hanwei mort. I had my CS out at a cutting party in May and cut up a goza mat. The Hanwei mort was less a cutter on the same medium and I was struggling to make full cuts with it. Granted, I am far from practiced these days after the 2008 stroke. The Hanwei you show with the brown grip and scabbard is the antique finish model Paul Southren reviewed on this site, so many years ago. He was cutting mats of some sort with that sword after sharpening a bit. www.sword-buyers-guide.com/english-swords.htmlI would note that not all mats are equal. Nice comparative shots of those three modern swords and also a shot at the walloon.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 25, 2016 19:05:03 GMT
Good review as always Dave. It looks like CS is upping their game here. I also read on another FB group that they are trying to make their sword handle better.
I don't find 4.65mm that bad, of course 6 mm would be better but with the size and weight of the hilt it would bring the POB even closer to the hilt and it will lose some of it's hitting power. I've handled seven antique basket hilt broadsword and backswords and six of the I got the chance to measure and weigh them. I'm at work right now so I don't have all the numbers for the thickness on the base of them but I do remember one only having 4.17mm thickness at the base.
From just going by the numbers that Dave posted, I would trust this sword on Mugen tatami mats. I had a AC mortuary sword and the base thickness is 1/8" 3.17mm and I cut a lot of Mugen, double, and triple rolled beach mats. I also have cut mats with swords other people would consider light cutters, and tell people that are worried that their sword might not be able to handle mats to first try 2L soda bottles. If a sword can cut a 2L them it can cut mats.
I have cut goza mats too but it's been awhile, and what I remember they are tougher to cut through than Mugen Dachi mats, so if the CS Mort can cut those just find I would classified it as battle ready.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 26, 2016 8:17:58 GMT
For one, it pissed me off quite a bit that CS advertises this thing having a thickness of 6 mm. It hasn't. Since these blades are hand made there could be some variation, but 4.6 mm is ridiculous. Howler under “The Cold Steel English Backsword. arrived today” states his was under 4mm and whippy. CS is replacing it.
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Post by darth on Jun 26, 2016 19:07:16 GMT
Damn sword reviews want to give me OCD. :-)
OK this was the #2 Western style sword I bought in my recent orgy of acquisition after training for this stuff with sticks for a few years as an adjunct to FMA. Sabers/Oficer swords and back/broadswords and the styles around them interest me the most. So much of what I had seen of it's "schooled" usage reminded me very much of the branch of Pekiti Tarsia Arnis we do. It's what made me say screw it and dive in to Western swords.
So when I saw this sword, read Edelweiss's post in a thread and the price on Midway, I ordered it and began my mail vigil.
Then one guy here said his snapped. Great! But hey, new sword, variances, I was not there ect. and he said CS were cool about it.
Then I got it. Initial impressions were mixed. I loved the feel of it. Both with western movment but also when i just let go and went with it.
I like the hilt, a lot. I can do a lot with it and I like the basket overall. I will add a finger ring to it inside and I now have dreams of an Armour Class style basket but this is cool. I like the "cheesy" plastic handle. It handles better than my CSA replica, and near as well as my antique Bavarian IOS.
But the blade, too me seemed kind thin. I was expecting a semi pig, this being Cold Steel. But a freind i talked too and Razor in a thread made some comments that put me at ease there, as did Ulhan on the hammer marks.
I have cut several plastic water bottles, including hitting and severing the cap no resistence. it stabs like a dream, like high pressure steam. I cut my daughter's penata with it easily, it split one of the extra big and thick tootsie rolls inside clean in half and I have cut brush and limbs with it.
No nicks or bends.
I have yet to do the aluminium basball bat block and parry test I have with my Windlass "CSA" officer's sword and my Bravarian IOS , or a more ambtious crowbar block test, I'll Think I want to be suited up in masks, gloves and a heavy coat IF I do with this. That hinges a lot on the following:
Reading this thread, I had to pull my tape out. If I go by my exp. with this sword and gut, I have no worries, but I also know my knowledge base on these tools is limited, so I am about to do an exercise here that may determine if I call CS and say " I think I have one of your stinkers".
DARTH'S ENGLISH BACK SWORD/MORTUARY SWORD ( They've changed the name like 3 times now)
Blade specs. Length of Blade 32 and 1/8" Length of Foilble of blade 11 and 5/8" POB 2 and 7/8" Blade POP 24" Width at base of blade/hilt 1 and 3/8" , Thickness 3/16" , So conversion 4.7625mm Width at POB 1 and 5/16" ,Thickness right between 3/16" and 1/8" Width at POP 1 and 1/16" , Thickness Between 1/16" and 1/8" Width 1" from point 11/16", Thickness 1/16"
I don't care if it's 100% historical to museam peices, men moded and customised weapons from the first fire hardened sticks. It's close enogh, it's a basket hilted back sword. Requirement met.
I feel it's probably my best sword. I love my Bavarian IOS, but I feel some advantages to this model as a weapon system.
But I do have some concerns based on comments here on this forum.
IDK? Any of you guys see an advantage to calling CS and acting worried? May get their finshed model based on all the feedback, so that could be great? But I could also be giving up a nice sword, to wait 3-5 months for something that's not really much better.
As an aside that really sucks about the CS Prussian! I was playing with Iron Dog's yesterday and I am turned, I want one. Just a little sanding down on the pipe so it's rounded and what not and that thing will fit my bill for a cav sword. Damn, now it's going to be either lucking out and finding one cheap or the one's around will be jacked up.
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Post by darth on Jun 26, 2016 19:16:09 GMT
Good review as always Dave. It looks like CS is upping their game here. I also read on another FB group that they are trying to make their sword handle better. I don't find 4.65mm that bad, of course 6 mm would be better but with the size and weight of the hilt it would bring the POB even closer to the hilt and it will lose some of it's hitting power. I've handled seven antique basket hilt broadsword and backswords and six of the I got the chance to measure and weigh them. I'm at work right now so I don't have all the numbers for the thickness on the base of them but I do remember one only having 4.17mm thickness at the base. From just going by the numbers that Dave posted, I would trust this sword on Mugen tatami mats. I had a AC mortuary sword and the base thickness is 1/8" 3.17mm and I cut a lot of Mugen, double, and triple rolled beach mats. I also have cut mats with swords other people would consider light cutters, and tell people that are worried that their sword might not be able to handle mats to first try 2L soda bottles. If a sword can cut a 2L them it can cut mats. I have cut goza mats too but it's been awhile, and what I remember they are tougher to cut through than Mugen Dachi mats, so if the CS Mort can cut those just find I would classified it as battle ready. I am kind of hoping you might come across one of these for a few minutes and give us your impressions of it. Dave and Ulhan seem to be the 18th/19th century sword go guys here but you seem to be a pretty well seasoned and knowledgeable person about Tudor/17th Century swords. I hope you get the chance soon. If you were not on the other coast, I’d be tempted to drive out to you with mine. :-)
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 26, 2016 20:33:39 GMT
DARTH'S ENGLISH BACK SWORD/MORTUARY SWORD ( They've changed the name like 3 times now) Blade specs. Length of Blade 32 and 1/8" Length of Foilble of blade 11 and 5/8" POB 2 and 7/8" Blade POP 24" Width at base of blade/hilt 1 and 3/8" , Thickness 3/16" , So conversion 4.7625mm Width at POB 1 and 5/16" ,Thickness right between 3/16" and 1/8" Width at POP 1 and 1/16" , Thickness Between 1/16" and 1/8" Width 1" from point 11/16", Thickness 1/16" Damn!!! I can't believe how close CS is getting to the originals! I really need to get my hands on one. This is an antique basket hilt backsword that I got to handle, measure, and weigh. Weight: 2lb 7 7/8oz Blade length: 32" At the base: width 1 7/16" Thickness 4.95mm POB: 2" width 1 2/8" Thickness 4.57mm COP: 21" width 15/16" thickness 2.33mm 1" from tip: width 11/16 thickness 1.19mm
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 26, 2016 21:51:13 GMT
Razor, I concede that your basket hilt fits nicely into the CS pattern, but you may have to take in account that over the many decades this backsword might have lost some steel due to de-rusting the blade, or keeping it up to spec. I know from my experience that shaving off 0.5 mm either side is not such a big job. I am not saying your backsword started out 9 mm thick at the base, but 5.5 mm would not suprise me. I have two swords that over the ages have been ,, shaved '', a 18th c. Spanish Bilbo and an 17th c. Amsterdam Guard broadsword. Both have quite thin and tired blades due to maintenance. In the end all this is not very important. What is important though is that CS makes a promise, the 6mm. Taken with a grain of salt, this being hand hammered blades, a reasonal margin would be 5.5 to 6.5 mm I think. They simply do not deliver. That's looking like false advertising. In the end many people buy this sword and expect a blade thickness around 6mm and they get this 4.6 mm. Not good for the buyer and not so good for CS either, since they will have to handle the blowback. Is it a QC problem, or just a ,, first batch '' problem? I do not know, but I will email them too and ask some questions. They need to know that there is a problem somewhere down the line.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 26, 2016 22:26:50 GMT
Razor, I concede that your basket hilt fits nicely into the CS pattern, but you may have to take in account that over the many decades this backsword might have lost some steel due to de-rusting the blade, or keeping it up to spec. I know from my experience that shaving off 0.5 mm either side is not such a big job. I am not saying your backsword started out 9 mm thick at the base, but 5.5 mm would not suprise me. I have two swords that over the ages have been ,, shaved '', a 18th c. Spanish Bilbo and an 17th c. Amsterdam Guard broadsword. Both have quite thin and tired blades due to maintenance. In the end all this is not very important. What is important though is that CS makes a promise, the 6mm. Taken with a grain of salt, this being hand hammered blades, a reasonal margin would be 5.5 to 6.5 mm I think. They simply do not deliver. That's looking like false advertising. In the end many people buy this sword and expect a blade thickness around 6mm and they get this 4.6 mm. Not good for the buyer and not so good for CS either, since they will have to handle the blowback. Is it a QC problem, or just a ,, first batch '' problem? I do not know, but I will email them too and ask some questions. They need to know that there is a problem somewhere down the line. Sorry Uhlan, but you are just assuming here. You didn't examine it, hold it, take pictures of it. I didn't just look at this sword for a few minutes, I examine six antique basket hilt swords for hours. In this picture you can see that the 4.95 thickness goes all the way into the basket where the blade couldn't of been messed with. Out of the six swords only one had a 6mm thickness the next one had a thickness of 5.45mm and the thinnest one was only 4.17mm, and you could see the same thickness going into the basket on all the swords. I agree with you when a sword company says a sword weighs this much or is this thick etc etc. Cs still isn't the only company to do this and a lot of reviews here have proven that. And having the thickness off by over 1mm is a lot, but it is still in the same range of the originals. If you don't like the thickness of it you can always return it and they should do it because it wasn't what they had advertised, or sell it.
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Post by darth on Jun 26, 2016 22:45:13 GMT
I do like Ulhan's point of them saying one thing, delivering another by a margin of 1.5MM-2MM.
But I am comforted by Razor's assessment about my sword..
What do you guys think? Should I call CS and say "Hey, you all said 6mm thick and I get this thing that almost 2mm smaller and I am hearing of other's breaking on bottles. You guys want to take this back and give me a decent one" on the hopes I get the improved, debugged next gen? I know some of you have experience with similar situations.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 26, 2016 23:26:17 GMT
I do like Ulhan's point of them saying one thing, delivering another by a margin of 1.5MM-2MM. But I am comforted by Razor's assessment about my sword.. What do you guys think? Should I call CS and say "Hey, you all said 6mm thick and I get this thing that almost 2mm smaller and I am hearing of other's breaking on bottles. You guys want to take this back and give me a decent one" on the hopes I get the improved, debugged next gen? I know some of you have experience with similar situations. I'd just leave then a feedback note. Either way, not a bad idea to express some concern and disaffection about what you got.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 27, 2016 0:04:32 GMT
I do like Ulhan's point of them saying one thing, delivering another by a margin of 1.5MM-2MM. But I am comforted by Razor's assessment about my sword.. What do you guys think? Should I call CS and say "Hey, you all said 6mm thick and I get this thing that almost 2mm smaller and I am hearing of other's breaking on bottles. You guys want to take this back and give me a decent one" on the hopes I get the improved, debugged next gen? I know some of you have experience with similar situations. It's really up to you but I agree with Dave, tell them that your sword wasn't 6mm but 4.76mm. If that was my sword, I would keep it. My Darkwood basket hilt training sword starts out with 3/16"(4.76mm) thickness and I beat the sempr!ni out of that sword. It has gone against heavier beefier swords, shields, bucklers, and staff weapons, I use it at lest once a week and it has been going strong for four years. I probably abuse that sword more than the originals were treated. It is the one on the left next to my other two trainers. Here you can see the thickness.
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Post by darth on Jun 27, 2016 0:43:50 GMT
Thank you razor and Dave Kelly. Know it's my decision but I know a lot of guys here have dealt with similar situations, so I was fisshing for " Good diea, CS has done great.. or " Don;t do it. i waited 6 months and got pretty much the same thing."
Good idea dropping them a line though. Documents concerns for later CYA.
I’ll drop them a friendly line, tell them my blade is thinner than advertised, I have heard reports of broken blades and blades taken back and just want to inform them that my sword is not anywhere near 6mm thick at the hilt and I do have some concerns as to my and my son's safety when using the swords as advertised. See what they say from there. They say or do nothing? Well the sword sounds fine according to our resident backsword guy but if it breaks I will have a document of me bringing concerns to them.
Sounds Win-Win.
I really like the way this thing wields, and I think after I put a finger strap or other " Anti torque" devices on it, its going to be even nicer ( I riged a paracord version for a few minutes to test the idea, it did aid in control, especially when using a saber grip.
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Post by darth on Jun 27, 2016 0:47:23 GMT
Odds are someone from CS will see this thread. If I owned the company I or someone would spend a lot of time looking over this kind of stuff.
Just in 2 threads on this and like swords we here of 1 breaking and one they took back. You have Ulhan not happy and Dave not super impressed.
One might think they don't care. I bet they do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 1:46:41 GMT
Cold Steel has a subsection on Blade Forums.
Now $195 shipped at Amazon
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 27, 2016 6:21:08 GMT
Razor, you are the basket hilt guy, so I salute you and your numbers. Numbers never lie.
Now, a question that slipped through the discussion: I see the Cromwell and the Mortuary have those lips protruding from the guard. I call them ,, anti torque devices '', like the inlet for the blade shoulders on Razor's basket hilt. I cannot make out from Dave's pictures whether there is any inlet for the blade on this backsword. To me it looks like the blade sits cold against the guard. Can anybody tell me whether this is true?
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 27, 2016 7:21:34 GMT
Yeah, it looks like the blade sits on the basket. I went back and looked the mortuary hilts in the "British Basket-Hilted Swords" book and it shows hilts with the lips and blades just cold against the guard just like the CS mort, but it also shows on some of the hilts with or without the lips have the basket open enough for the blade to go right through it. So they did have some baskets where the blade sits right on the hilt.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 27, 2016 8:38:34 GMT
Thank you very much.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 27, 2016 14:53:01 GMT
Cold Steel has a subsection on Blade Forums. Now $195 shipped at Amazon The price is more attractive. However, CS has been known not to honour their warranty for items sold by Amazon. Whether this is important is up to the individual, just be advised.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 27, 2016 20:04:25 GMT
Thanks for the warning pgandy. I tried to contact CS this afternoon but the site is under construction and the contact form does not work.I do not know how long it is going to take for this problem to be solved. I will try again tomorrow.
Cheers.
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