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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 1:19:33 GMT
Flamethrower beats both.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 3:08:48 GMT
But can it cut through a tank? In addition, nobody can hear you hollering "YOOOOOOTTTTTTCCCCCHHHHHHHH" over the roar of the flame thrower, so you lose 2 coolness factor points
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 3:17:32 GMT
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 16, 2010 3:28:46 GMT
I think this thread could be salvaged by people saying, like I did, why they like certain swords over others, at least I would find it interesting, for example, why Ricwilly likes Gladii so much, knowing what an awesome guy Ric is, and his great knowledge of swords, I might learn things I didn't know about Gladii, and maybe I would find out I was missing out on a kind of sword I would not otherwise think about had I not read why Ric liked them as much as he does It would help folks new to the forum too to read the discussions, and as long as it people giving their personal reasons for why they felt as they did, the thread wouldn't devolve into "Katanas R Best, they Own All Other Swordz U N00bs" junk and a Thread Locked. I got hooked on gladii because of HBO's "Rome" series. They aren't as much fun to cut with as a good euro one hander or bastard sword. I like the simplicity of a gladius "just stick em". Also I like the hedonistic lifestyle espoused by the Romans as portrayed in the afore mentioned television program. It's really as simple as that.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Jul 16, 2010 4:46:18 GMT
FOR ALL NEWCOMERS to the world of swords, well by now a variety of replies have been posted in regards thread subject, and among the best you should be able to separate the 'wheat' from the 'chaff', some replies have offered good examples of principled preferences and they know who they are. So to my point...a sword is a weapon...a primitive weapon at that...all types of swords are instruments of noble worth and virtue, if....the big ' if '...YOU are of noble worth and virtue. period. Please if you are such a man or woman, buy or obtain a good quality sword of any type you desire, what would interest you the most to start, then become a student of all things related, perhaps most important, safe handling and all moral considerations inherent in weapon ownership and use. Your quality example as even the newest of sword ownership will help to ensure all of us a long held sacred right, at least in the USA, to do these things without being banned and or regulated to obscurity. Please if you buy one book to learn more on swords to really help you maybe even make a decision, Please consider "The Book of Swords" by Hank Reinhardt, it will be the best $15 you ever spent, a wealth of information and written in a polite humorous and quite humble way. I like the medieval and I like the katana, most of all I like the 'people' that appreciate these similar interests as students and as practitioners and as collectors, but I really appreciate ALL swords of every type and age and culture, it gets in your blood...wouldn't have it any other way. A GREAT SWORD DAY TO ALL I'll tip my hat to you, sir. Sometimes we forget what a swords basic purpose is. We also forget sometimes what a sword is. No matter what your arguement is, if you can't agree that a sword, in its quidity, begins with as a sharpened piece of metal made to kill then you'd better go back and check your premise. Oh hell, did Avery just big words in a sentence, yes; yes I think he did.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 7:37:07 GMT
I had one guy tell me he had no interest in "primitive" music and wouldn't teach me the cords.... he went on to critique my interest in the music. WOW I know it's "un-priestly" of me, but WHAT A semprini! He was probably just late for the local KKK meeting and had to swing by home for his white sheet, any way. Blows my mind that there are still people that ignorant in the world. By the way, I am a BIG TIME Blues fan, m'self. For me, it's listening to the ladies sing it: Ella Fitzgerald, Nina Simone, Etta James, and the all time Empress of the Blues, "Lady Day". ~wp
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Post by musicalpoo on Jul 16, 2010 7:55:47 GMT
I had one guy tell me he had no interest in "primitive" music and wouldn't teach me the cords.... he went on to critique my interest in the music. WOW I know it's "un-priestly" of me, but WHAT A semprini! He was probably just late for the local KKK meeting and had to swing by home for his white sheet, any way. Blows my mind that there are still people that ignorant in the world. By the way, I am a BIG TIME Blues fan, m'self. For me, it's listening to the ladies sing it: Ella Fitzgerald, Nina Simone, Etta James, and the all time Empress of the Blues, "Lady Day". ~wp Any chance this man was Lady Gaga?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2010 11:14:31 GMT
I had one guy tell me he had no interest in "primitive" music and wouldn't teach me the cords.... he went on to critique my interest in the music. WOW I know it's "un-priestly" of me, but WHAT A semprini! He was probably just late for the local KKK meeting and had to swing by home for his white sheet, any way. Blows my mind that there are still people that ignorant in the world. By the way, I am a BIG TIME Blues fan, m'self. For me, it's listening to the ladies sing it: Ella Fitzgerald, Nina Simone, Etta James, and the all time Empress of the Blues, "Lady Day". ~wp it may be unpriestly but it is very warriorly . . . ummm combative? ummm yeah you are still being true to half of you at the least. you go
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 16, 2010 12:35:20 GMT
I think this thread could be salvaged by people saying, like I did, why they like certain swords over others, at least I would find it interesting, for example, why Ricwilly likes Gladii so much, knowing what an awesome guy Ric is, and his great knowledge of swords, I might learn things I didn't know about Gladii, and maybe I would find out I was missing out on a kind of sword I would not otherwise think about had I not read why Ric liked them as much as he does It would help folks new to the forum too to read the discussions, and as long as it people giving their personal reasons for why they felt as they did, the thread wouldn't devolve into "Katanas R Best, they Own All Other Swordz U N00bs" junk and a Thread Locked. I will jump in with a response to this one as well. I am a big fan of the single-hand European medieval sword. Actually, just about anything from the beginning of the "Viking Age" through the early Rennaissance. I find their clean lines to be appealing, and I find their use with shields of various types to be the height of mixing offense with defense. The sword is primarily offensive and the shield is primarily defensive. But sometimes the roles can be reversed. I don't know know why this type appeals to me more than any other, at the moment. But it does. My second category of favorite is the European longsword, as represented mostly by what we would now call "Hand & a Half" swords. I find these swords to be quite intriguing, especially when handled according to the various surviving fencing manuals and manuscripts from the period of the late middle ages. This was the period when everyday folks, businessmen and craftsmen and merchants, could regularly carry and train with swords. Before that, it seems that you had to be a noble or retainer of a noble to go properly armed with a sword. So, to me at least, the longsword is a tie-in to a time when the "rights of the common man" were starting to emerge in Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 12:59:49 GMT
I hereby charge all forumites with the duty of "Keep Mikeeman off of Vicoden!"
After going back and reading what I wrote, I feel like a total jackass.
That aside, I like katanas for the fact that they are light and agile. Weighing in at around 135 lbs, I'm a pretty lightweight guy. They are easier for me to handle. Also, some of the straight skinny euros. So long as they are super light.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 16, 2010 13:11:40 GMT
I'll expand a bit on my answer to Monger's question if you'll indulge me. I wasn't being flippant about "Rome" being what attracted me to the gladius. It got my attention but the deadly simplicity of the design appeals to me on a sort of primal level. It is my favorite. However being a part of this forum opened me up to other types and my favorite for actual use these days is a good medieval single hander, a few examples; my Albion Poitiers, Atrim 1315+ and the VA practical arming. These a just joy for me to use. A close second is a good longsword ala VA LS, H/T LS and Hanwei Bastard. I like trying to apply what I've learned from a couple manuals suggested by forum member Razor. I believe there is some influence from "Conan the Barbarian" involved as well.
I had an early infatuation with katana (because of Highlander I suspect) but it has passed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 14:10:41 GMT
I love my kats but after seeing Ric and reading about his gladiis I had to try em-they are stabby hacky choppy goodness and shiny to!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 14:46:32 GMT
Katana aren't bad swords. Not sure they are my thing, though. I like the idea of the katana, and I appriciate them on a romantic level, but now that I finallly own a decent one there are some things I find disagreeable.
Mind you, same goes with most European weapons. I'm not sure the sword that is "my thing" has even existed as a historical weapon, so the point is kinda moot for me.
Anyway, what does "medieaval euro sword" mean here? Just going by Oakeshott there are 13 different kinds of medieval sword, and that's not even counting stuff like falchions, etc. You kinda need to narrow it down.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 15:11:22 GMT
Now that the set-up is out of the way, let's have them go at it shall we? ... heavy ... limited mobility of his armor ... the samurai who has slightly lighter armor and better visibility. ... after a few hits, it would be bent, broke, or otherwise unusable. ... end up baseball-batting the samurai until he is immobile and will be bludgeoned until he dies. ... Samurai are quick, more agile ... weapons are just not meant to punch through full-body steel armor. ... Knights weaponry are more-or-less meant to dent armor and cause head trauma until death. What kind of crack have you been smoking? "Heavy" transitional armour weighs in at an almost unbelievably low weight, and it got lighter from there. Knight could vault into their saddle, to cartwheels and all kinds of other acrobatics. "Samurai" armour weighed more than euro armour. The Edo armour at Higgins weighs 77lb. Full white harness from 15th c only came in around 45lb. Not sure what planet you come from where you bash into steel plates with your sword. Both the Katana and Euro Longswords were excellent thrusting weapons and would have been used as such attempting well placed, quick thrusts against gaps in armour. Often after some sort of grapple or bind. There are some examples of bludgeoning attacks with a longsword (murder stroke, pommel strikes, ect) the primary method of dealing with an armoured foe is half swording with the sword. Accurate, fast, thrusts are the name of the game.... not clubbing. If you want to bludgeon you bring a pole hammer. Samurai were well trained, athletic humans. Knights were well trained, athletic humans. Why would you say one group was more agile, quick, strong, ect? No, of course not. Nether longswords or katanas were designed to cut though plates of metal. A really great thrust, landing just right - perhaps. But that's not how to use the things in the first place. A short stab to the unarmoured groin, or into lightly armoured location is much more effective than bashing on the plates. Again, if you want to punch though the armour - you don't bring a sword. You bring a lance, or polearm. No, a knightly longsword is meant to hew unarmoured opponents, and thrust to weak points into juicy chivalric goodness. It was meant to be used as a tool to bind, trap, takedown or tie so your rondel dagger could thrust to the weak points into juicy chivalric goodness.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 15:59:38 GMT
Well how wonderful mr.jimc for you to offer us the benefit of your real world combat experience and most of all to preface your reply with a 'street' insult to an honest opinion of a respected member of the roundtable, and most of all the thrilling description of your first hand experience in the thrust kill of your medieval opponent I normally would say to my friends here..Ga-Day I must say to you.... Bidet! Oh please. The sword community as damn near a whole has been trying to debunk this concept of slow, ponderous knight clubbing someone to death with a sword for decades. The period manuscripts are filled with examples of thrusting, half swording and grappling. Oh, yes, I have done armoured rebated steel combat. Swinging for the armour is just about the surest way to loose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 16:49:50 GMT
well... I know the title is euro/japanese... but I prefer chinese. but even in that i am picky. i prefer jian... a two edged sword, for the advantage of two edges, and straight for the advantage likewise. a curved sword has it's advantages also, for what it is designed for. there is another thread debating the difference there. i can use a dao, but i prefer a jian.
if i were to use euro, i would prefer a rapier for obvious similarities in handling characteristics. i do own a hanwei agincourt sword, that i bought for looks and construction (peened pommel). my brother was interested in knowing if the over 2 1/2 lbs agincourt could effectively be parried by the less than 2 lbs jian that i have (jin-shi). so we tested it. i had him try a overhead strike, then a lunge, and a side strike (sorry not up on the haurs type terms). i successfully parried all strikes at medium speed. so we tried at full speed... with him swinging, where there would be no body contact with blade.... success again.
it is not about blade design, nor weight, it is about skill. (and of course if your sword is built sturdy enough). we will look at firearms for example. you go deer hunting with a 3006, not a 22. that is what it is for. but in a combat fire fight (except for being too far away) the guy with a 22 can win against the 3006, give he has better skill at evasion cover and shot accuracy. i know that can be debated as well.
those of you who spar, try an experiment. get out your blunt and a 3 ft staff. realize that the staff can win if the user is skilled. the blunt is heavier and has an advantage as well as if it were sharp would have another advantage. but if the staff user has skills, he can still win. one of the biggest reasons that hand to hand is trained first in MA is that should you be disarmed you can still have a way to defend. one instructor once told me that the disadvantage of a weapon is that should you make a mistake it can become the opponents weapon.
the knights trained in the armor to be able to move in it. they trained rigorously. nowadays with reinactors they dont train probably as much as those of old. as for a katana... even tho the armor is lighter, for the samurai, there are disadvantages there. it is easier to penetrate for one. so lets take both and do unarmored. the knight would have an advantage since he has shed so much weighty hinderance, that he would be way faster.
it is like running or bicycling, with weights on, then taking them off for the race... zoom.
I think the best way to look at this is what style do you know, then what sword is best for that style. i do CMA, i can grab a katana, but i use it llike a dao. so the dao vs katana myth would be busted. i use jian but, if given a euro blade, as long as it isnt one of thos 5 ft long CS products, i would still use it similar to jian. so that myth is busted.
pick the sword right for your style... that is the best sword.
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Jul 16, 2010 17:22:29 GMT
I'd wage my opinion in here, but frankly, Hank Reinhardt stated it best in this essay: www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htmIn short: Every sword was designed for a purpose, for its time. --Edward
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 17:29:33 GMT
Well how wonderful mr.jimc for you to offer us the benefit of your real world combat experience and most of all to preface your reply with a 'street' insult to an honest opinion of a respected member of the roundtable, and most of all the thrilling description of your first hand experience in the thrust kill of your medieval opponent I normally would say to my friends here..Ga-Day I must say to you.... Bidet! Oh please. The sword community as damn near a whole has been trying to debunk this concept of slow, ponderous knight clubbing someone to death with a sword for decades. The period manuscripts are filled with examples of thrusting, half swording and grappling. Oh, yes, I have done armoured rebated steel combat. Swinging for the armour is just about the surest way to loose. Guys, how about we all enjoy a nice tall glass of calm-down juice? Arguments about who's the bigger know-it-all will just make the mods start limbering up the Thread Lock button. Surely we can be gentlemen, no?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 17:52:06 GMT
I'd wage my opinion in here, but frankly, Hank Reinhardt stated it best in this essay: www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htmIn short: Every sword was designed for a purpose, for its time. --Edward 'nuff said. On another note, why is my esteemed buddy Ric topless?
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 16, 2010 18:02:10 GMT
'nuff said. On another note, why is my esteemed buddy Ric topless? Because he is so SEXXXXXXXXXY.
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