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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 4:57:21 GMT
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't most people of that time and place without good armor? Against bare skin it could be used to dangerous effect. Your not wrong as far as I know... but as I said, even against unarmoured opponents if you whack an Obsidian sword into someone its gonna snap, its super brittle. I understand they sometimes put shards of Obsidian into large wood clubs to make swords... and with those at least after a few whacks and the Obsidian breaks, you still have a club. But you don't have a sword anymore. To me, any weapon that, due to its very nature will be broken after a few uses can not really be considered a good weapon. Well honestly If thicker obsidian were used to give the edge more meat, I can't see it being that huge of an issue. Human bone isn't incredibly tough, and as far as I've seen with these weapons, they seemed to be intended to inflict gashes as opposed to severing limbs. A wrist or throat cut with one of those and I think you'd be fine. Peronally I believe the weapon would hold up, though the proof is in the pudding... I haven't seen one of these tested so this is conjecture.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2010 5:00:27 GMT
The way I see it, if big enough pieces of obsidian were used, and the weapon was used the proper way, it could last quite some time against good ol' bare meat. Though even if one or two pieces did chip or break...heck, that's just more cutting surfaces. Win-win. Granted, I can also see the downside of the whole every-piece-breaks aspect; but that's dependent on use, again. Just don't go underestimating the wooden club.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 27, 2010 5:05:37 GMT
Well honestly If thicker obsidian were used to give the edge more meat, I can't see it being that huge of an issue. Human bone isn't incredibly tough, and as far as I've seen with these weapons, they seemed to be intended to inflict gashes as opposed to severing limbs. A wrist or throat cut with one of those and I think you'd be fine. Peronally I believe the weapon would hold up, though the proof is in the pudding... I haven't seen one of these tested so this is conjecture. No one has seen those Obsidian weapons put to the test because no one uses em anymore, and have not for a long time. There was a BS version tested recently on 'The Deadliest Warrior' but that show is a steaming pile of excramint and missinformation, so I don't take anything they do too serously.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 5:13:50 GMT
Well honestly If thicker obsidian were used to give the edge more meat, I can't see it being that huge of an issue. Human bone isn't incredibly tough, and as far as I've seen with these weapons, they seemed to be intended to inflict gashes as opposed to severing limbs. A wrist or throat cut with one of those and I think you'd be fine. Peronally I believe the weapon would hold up, though the proof is in the pudding... I haven't seen one of these tested so this is conjecture. No one has seen those Obsidian weapons put to the test because no one uses em anymore, and have not for a long time. There was a BS version tested recently on 'The Deadliest Warrior' but that show is a steaming pile of excramint and missinformation, so I don't take anything they do too serously. Heh, good man. That show is ridiculous. It basically like this thread, except people often take that more seriously. You know "Knight VS samurai" semprini. Can't wait to see what it devolves to. "Next time on, dealiest warrior, vikings VS sharks with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads, who will win?" *Ugh*
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 5:14:38 GMT
Obsidian is sharp, sure... but very, VERY brittle. After a couple strikes on even unarmoured targets its going to shater and then you have no weapon or... if you had a wood core, you now have a club. Against armour I'd bet the Obsidian is useless. Any sword that frail can't really be considered a good weapon IMO. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't most people of that time and place without good armor? Against bare skin it could be used to dangerous effect. Correct there was not much in the way of armor, until the Spanish, and spend a little time in a tropical jungle wearing armor and you would understand why. For those who have never seen an obsidian sword before As for weither it is useful against armor, well that was not the question. The question what is the best sword. Obviously the best sword is the sharpest, so it has to be the Aztec obsidian sword since it is the sharpest blade ever. I also did mention that it would break and shatter, leaving those nasty slivers of glass in your wound. Which makes it even better, since it is a wound that keeps on cutting. ;D Come on people really? Do you actually think I am trying to argue what blade is better? Seems you missed my mention that I don't actually think swords from different cultures can really be compared since what works depends more on the individual and their style of combat. I jokingly pointed at the Aztec blade because no one seems to ever remember that the sharpest blade was from the America's and it was not made of metal at all but stone and wood! There are more places that made swords than Europe and Japan. Anyways why do you lump an entire continent against one country ? To be fair you should say England vs Japan, or Spain vs Japan. Or you should say European vs all of Asia. Europe had many different cultures with many different styles. Not really a good way to compare when you have to use entire continent to compare with one country.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2010 5:20:19 GMT
I still want a yataghan. Maybe with a nice, matching jambiya...because, why not? ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 5:25:39 GMT
Well, I wouldn't even bring up the topic of Spanish invaders. The Aztecs stood a snowball's chance in hell against them. They thought they were GODS, morale was low and weapons were inefficient. After all, how would you feel if you genuinely believed that the foreign invaders were immortal, omnipotent beings? I wouldn't feel very good!
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 27, 2010 17:39:35 GMT
Well, I wouldn't even bring up the topic of Spanish invaders. The Aztecs stood a snowball's chance in hell against them. They thought they were GODS, morale was low and weapons were inefficient. After all, how would you feel if you genuinely believed that the foreign invaders were immortal, omnipotent beings? I wouldn't feel very good! Heh. Yeah, doing battle with invading gods likely not good for troop morale.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 18:55:06 GMT
Well, I wouldn't even bring up the topic of Spanish invaders. The Aztecs stood a snowball's chance in hell against them. They thought they were GODS, morale was low and weapons were inefficient. After all, how would you feel if you genuinely believed that the foreign invaders were immortal, omnipotent beings? I wouldn't feel very good! It is important to look beyond a few paragraphs about Cortes in Mexico and then understand that is was more than what is often supposed. Cortes' victory over the Aztec was only successful by aligning native enemies and joining with those thousands to overthrow the Aztec culture. Cortes and his men were quite lucky to survive the first real meeting. Here is but one more complete. www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A13856970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 19:01:32 GMT
Correct there was not much in the way of armor, until the Spanish, and spend a little time in a tropical jungle wearing armor and you would understand why. The Mexicans did use a pretty effective armor. Effective that is against their weapons, but a Spanish sword thrust could fairly easily defeat it. It was similar to a ¨jack¨ or brigandine used in Europe but consisted only of thick layers of quilted cotton. Many Conquistadores soon adopted the native armor for the reasons stated above and because it was fairly effective against the weapons used by the opposition. .....the topic of Spanish invaders. The Aztecs stood a snowball's chance in hell against them. They thought they were GODS...... SOME of the Mexicans apparently thought that Cortez was a god...at first anyway. But they very soon realized that the Spanish were flesh and blood like themselves. Many Conquistadores were killed and wounded in battle with the Mexicans and with other nations, as well as being sacrificed to their gods.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 27, 2010 19:15:16 GMT
Good points, Glen and Jim. I have read of the Spaniards use of natives to battle the Aztecs. And yeah, gods don't generally bleed. Not to death anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 20:47:00 GMT
CHAPTER CXXIII.
How the 2000 Indians of Chinantla, whom Cortes had demanded of the caziques there, arrived at Sempoalla after Narvaez's defeat.
Late in the evening of the same day on which we had gained the victory over Narvaez, the 2000 Indian troops arrived which Cortes had requested the caziques of Chinantla to send us. They came under the command of their caziques, and one of our soldiers named Barrientos, and marched into Sempoalla in the best military order possible, two abreast. They were all tall and powerful men, armed with their immense-sized lances and huge shields ; every lancer was followed by a bowman. In this manner, under the sound of drums and trumpets, they marched in, with their feathers waving on their head and their colours flying, and continually cried out, "Long live the emperor! long live Cortes f" They made such a grand show, that though they were only 2000 in number, one would have thought at first sight there had been 3000. Narvaez's men were not a little astonished when they beheld these men, and remarked to each other that they would have fared worse if they had had to encounter these people, or if they had joined us in the attack.
Cortes received the Chinantlan chiefs most kindly, thanked them for the trouble they had put themselves to, and desired them to return to their homes, after presenting them with various things of Spanish manufacture. Barrientos likewise returned with them, and Cortes particularly admonished him not to allow these Indians to commit any depredations in the townships they passed through.
Just one recollection from a soldier of Spain. Interesting reading from just from one perspective. There are letters and other information about Cortes and his army collated quite well by the late 19th century and there are a lot of both older and newer books on the subject. One volume from (and this particular translation) The memoirs of the conquistador Bernal Diaz del Castillo is readily available via Google (as are other books on the subject) books.google.com/books?id=1eACAAAAYAAJThere was a ship manifest I have misplaced and iirc, was a different series of expeditions but it related the staggering relative poverty of most of the Spanish armies and how little uniform armor and arms actually were. Come with what you brung, basically. It may have been a Cortes manifest but I am missing recalling exactly where it is shelved here. Simon says or just call me Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 13:44:11 GMT
"So hey, European swords or Japanese?" "Umm, Japanese?" YOU FAILLLLLLLLL! Oh god, why is this still being posted? For a thread on a sword forum, these have to be the most uncivilized threads that are most often posted. I personally love Japanese swords, but you always have that guy that is like "Nope, this is without a doubt better". I wish I could say I am shocked, but not really. We should sticky one of these so people stop posting them, at that point it'd just be redundant. And what I love the most, people know this will cause drama. *Sigh* EDIT: I also notice people flat out saying "European swords are better" despite the intended purposes of the swords in question. Also the "Kats all look alike" is funny to me, because that is what detered me from European swords. And if Quality control is such a huge factor, don't get Chinese-made swords, invest in something high quality. Just the stupidity of the posts... Sorry if I offend any particular person, but this is the kind of thing that makes me lose respect for those I thought were doing the forum well, sweeping generalizations just piss me off. I may not be the most well respected member of SBG, nor the oldest, but...... Geez dude. Perhaps you should rack up a few more posts, a little more respect, and a few more manners before trash talking an entire forum.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 29, 2010 13:53:48 GMT
Would it help if I said that he's been around longer than you think, and I agree with him? He's got a valid point, which I have said myself pretty much every time this topic has come up in the past, but have quite frankly gotten tired of repeating. Oh, .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 13:58:37 GMT
True, but that was quite a bash...
I have to agree that my first post in this thread was absolutely rediculous. But that's what happens when you take pain killers for surgery and play on the internet. I think that's the 4th time I've had to say that.
Besides, this thread has actually turned into something semi-productive.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 29, 2010 14:26:33 GMT
I took most of his post as tongue-in-cheek humor, myself, but it doesn't change the fact that he's right. I'm honestly not sure what's come of this thread bit at least it's not completely awful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 16:12:37 GMT
Lightsabers by far are the best sword ever! You have seen the rest now lets talk about the best. The handy dandy lightsaber.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 29, 2010 20:00:10 GMT
"So hey, European swords or Japanese?" "Umm, Japanese?" YOU FAILLLLLLLLL! Oh god, why is this still being posted? For a thread on a sword forum, these have to be the most uncivilized threads that are most often posted. I personally love Japanese swords, but you always have that guy that is like "Nope, this is without a doubt better". I wish I could say I am shocked, but not really. We should sticky one of these so people stop posting them, at that point it'd just be redundant. And what I love the most, people know this will cause drama. *Sigh* EDIT: I also notice people flat out saying "European swords are better" despite the intended purposes of the swords in question. Also the "Kats all look alike" is funny to me, because that is what detered me from European swords. And if Quality control is such a huge factor, don't get Chinese-made swords, invest in something high quality. Just the stupidity of the posts... Sorry if I offend any particular person, but this is the kind of thing that makes me lose respect for those I thought were doing the forum well, sweeping generalizations just piss me off. I may not be the most well respected member of SBG, nor the oldest, but...... Geez dude. Perhaps you should rack up a few more posts, a little more respect, and a few more manners before trash talking an entire forum. Oh, I dunno, Mike. Peeps ought be able to express their opinion. I seem to remember a young man being dogged pretty bad for having an unpopular opinion on another forum. Still, a sense of humor helps. Keeps one from taking things out of context. ;D I'd say it's pretty much a given that a thread title that contains the words "European medieval vs. Japanese" is going to contain some joking. Poo, knew this when he started the thread I'm sure. Someone with the screen name containing "poo" has to have a sence of humor, eh? Yeah, I know some are going to get their hackles up but that's the nature of the web. For example a person could look at this exchange, ...And all Euro medievals look like crucifixes. ;D and come to the conclusion that the first person is a close minded fool and the second one is breaking the forum rule against religion. However, I submit that anyone that would make such a leap would have to have a fairly large stick up their ass. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2010 11:45:48 GMT
"Oh, I dunno, Mike. Peeps ought be able to express their opinion. I seem to remember a young man being dogged pretty bad for having an unpopular opinion on another forum."
I'm not a member of any other forums....
It's just a little hard not to get defensive when you're being pointed at, I guess. I know what I said was dumb, uneducated, all that good stuff. I appologized for it (several times) and there are still those going Dude? Are you on CRACK!? So, uh..... Sorry?
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 30, 2010 16:27:20 GMT
"Oh, I dunno, Mike. Peeps ought be able to express their opinion. I seem to remember a young man being dogged pretty bad for having an unpopular opinion on another forum." I'm not a member of any other forums.... It's just a little hard not to get defensive when you're being pointed at, I guess. I know what I said was dumb, uneducated, all that good stuff. I appologized for it (several times) and there are still those going Dude? Are you on CRACK!? So, uh..... Sorry? Hell, Mike, I was refering to Sal being the one being dogged on the other forum. I thought he was pointing at me. LOL
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