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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 5, 2021 16:23:14 GMT
I know Wes and Mike both personally and count them both as friends. It's been a tough juggle once in a while. for those of you who don't know them let me assure you that they only agree on things like: water is wet, which way is up are tacos tasty. so what you are seeing here today is very significant because it means that there is just absolutely zero grounds to argue on. if there was any way to argue this these two guys would find it and pick opposite sides, even if for no other reason than to tweak the other's nose.
I will give Scorpion credit for some heat treat as the front end of the sword is springy but the back end in this case is obviously soft. so if we amend Wes's assessment to include a day of stuffing as many as possible in the heat treat oven (at least for as much of them fits in it) then I think we have a pretty good guess at the production process.
and to answer a previous question, you make blades for ten years and know nothing, not even the basics because you never intended to learn to do it right, you just set up a process that kicks out product as fast as possible and put all your effort into learning the market and writing hype. He is obviously quite accomplished at hype, his website has more buzzwords than than a bee hive's thesaurus
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jun 5, 2021 21:13:23 GMT
^^^^ He's not wrong xD
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 5, 2021 21:26:11 GMT
I will give Scorpion credit for some heat treat as the front end of the sword is springy but the back end in this case is obviously soft. so if we amend Wes's assessment to include a day of stuffing as many as possible in the heat treat oven (at least for as much of them fits in it) then I think we have a pretty good guess at the production process. and to answer a previous question, you make blades for ten years and know nothing, not even the basics because you never intended to learn to do it right, you just set up a process that kicks out product as fast as possible and put all your effort into learning the market and writing hype. He is obviously quite accomplished at hype, his website has more buzzwords than than a bee hive's thesaurus Not a surprise considering the makers target market...teenagers and those into the Zombie/fantasy market. IMHO, the market has been getting exactly what it has wanted...buzzwords and hype...you know...like a fantasy.  I am not saying I agree but...the argument can be made that those who fall for buzzwords and hype get what they deserve... |
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jun 6, 2021 3:22:24 GMT
I will give Scorpion credit for some heat treat as the front end of the sword is springy but the back end in this case is obviously soft. so if we amend Wes's assessment to include a day of stuffing as many as possible in the heat treat oven (at least for as much of them fits in it) then I think we have a pretty good guess at the production process. and to answer a previous question, you make blades for ten years and know nothing, not even the basics because you never intended to learn to do it right, you just set up a process that kicks out product as fast as possible and put all your effort into learning the market and writing hype. He is obviously quite accomplished at hype, his website has more buzzwords than than a bee hive's thesaurus Not a surprise considering the makers target market...teenagers and those into the Zombie/fantasy market. IMHO, the market has been getting exactly what it has wanted...buzzwords and hype...you know...like a fantasy. I am not saying I agree but...the argument can be made that those who fall for buzzwords and hype get what they deserve... True but thats kinda what sbg was meant to be for, to educate the masses on whats quality |
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Mikeeman
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Small Business Operator
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 6, 2021 16:09:31 GMT
I mean... Pizza > tacos, tho. 😒
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 6, 2021 17:05:33 GMT
Not a surprise considering the makers target market...teenagers and those into the Zombie/fantasy market. IMHO, the market has been getting exactly what it has wanted...buzzwords and hype...you know...like a fantasy. I am not saying I agree but...the argument can be made that those who fall for buzzwords and hype get what they deserve... True but thats kinda what sbg was meant to be for, to educate the masses on whats quality What's the old saying about horses and water ? |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 6, 2021 17:07:11 GMT
....you make blades for ten years and know nothing, not even the basics because you never intended to learn to do it right, you just set up a process that kicks out product as fast as possible and put all your effort into learning the market and writing hype.... I've been by and large staying out of this discussion, but I feel that I have to double up what Tom just said. First off, I have never dealt with Scorpion, nor do I know anybody at the company or do I have any business interest in them whatsoever. What I want to say is generic in nature and not directed at any individual or company. Second, for those that don't already know, I professionally teach quality management (among other things) at the senior executive level for major corporations, so I have at least a thimble full of knowledge about the topic. Tom is 100% correct: you can do a job for 20 years the wrong way. Just because you have time in trade, does NOT mean you have learned the trade in any meaningful way, especially if you were self-taught or only had on-the-job training. It is quite possible, and common, to learn a mistake, repeat the mistake, then believe the mistakes are part of the job because they don't cause any major harm and are chalked up to "that's how it goes". I have personally investigated and studied companies that were doing just these kinds of things, then retrained the management and workers correctly. Within a few months, the company profits went up, customer complaints when down, and less money was spent re-doing work. I can go on for some length about quality management, but suffice it to say that at the end of the day it's the customer that will determine whether or not a product is considered "quality". If the customers are hammering you about your workmanship or product failures, then that is the biggest red flag with spinning psychedelic pinwheel and siren with flashing strobe light warning that you need to pay attention or risk going out of business. If you continue with the mentality of "that's the way we've always done it" or "the customers don't know a good thing when they have it in their hand", then you deserve whatever happens to you. 'Kay, off my soapbox now. |
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 6, 2021 17:32:13 GMT
I will give Scorpion credit for some heat treat as the front end of the sword is springy but the back end in this case is obviously soft. so if we amend Wes's assessment to include a day of stuffing as many as possible in the heat treat oven (at least for as much of them fits in it) then I think we have a pretty good guess at the production process. and to answer a previous question, you make blades for ten years and know nothing, not even the basics because you never intended to learn to do it right, you just set up a process that kicks out product as fast as possible and put all your effort into learning the market and writing hype. He is obviously quite accomplished at hype, his website has more buzzwords than than a bee hive's thesaurus Not a surprise considering the makers target market...teenagers and those into the Zombie/fantasy market. IMHO, the market has been getting exactly what it has wanted...buzzwords and hype...you know...like a fantasy. I am not saying I agree but...the argument can be made that those who fall for buzzwords and hype get what they deserve... I think the guy and i stay with Zombie Tools for this niche... |
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 6, 2021 18:06:04 GMT
Not a surprise considering the makers target market...teenagers and those into the Zombie/fantasy market. IMHO, the market has been getting exactly what it has wanted...buzzwords and hype...you know...like a fantasy. I am not saying I agree but...the argument can be made that those who fall for buzzwords and hype get what they deserve... I think the guy and i stay with Zombie Tools for this niche... There's a lot of good quality "tactical" or "post-apocalyptic" blades out there, and thinking you will receive a properly tempered blade as claimed by the maker is not falling for buzzwords or hype. Scorpion Swords ads aren't even lurid in comparison to APOC or Zombie Tools ad copies. It's just that nobody thought a durable spring temper was an unrealistic expectation for these handmade-in-the-USA thick, slab handle swords. |
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Post by shepherd214 on Jun 6, 2021 20:56:27 GMT
I think the guy and i stay with Zombie Tools for this niche... There's a lot of good quality "tactical" or "post-apocalyptic" blades out there, and thinking you will receive a properly tempered blade as claimed by the maker is not falling for buzzwords or hype. Scorpion Swords ads aren't even lurid in comparison to APOC or Zombie Tools ad copies. It's just that nobody thought a durable spring temper was an unrealistic expectation for these handmade-in-the-USA thick, slab handle swords. Exactly. I'm a knifemaker and I was certain that i could modify mine of it didn't like it. But the massively warped blade was too much for me to want to try. I just wanted a good heat treat on a long blade that I'm unable to make myself. My heat treat ovens aren't long enough. |
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 6, 2021 21:04:05 GMT
I think the guy and i stay with Zombie Tools for this niche... There's a lot of good quality "tactical" or "post-apocalyptic" blades out there, and thinking you will receive a properly tempered blade as claimed by the maker is not falling for buzzwords or hype. Scorpion Swords ads aren't even lurid in comparison to APOC or Zombie Tools ad copies. It's just that nobody thought a durable spring temper was an unrealistic expectation for these handmade-in-the-USA thick, slab handle swords. Yeah we are glad by now they never requested our Romphaia request; would have been hard to get customer service from Germany to USA or vice versa. Already had such trouble with KOA some years back (once!). |
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 6, 2021 21:07:04 GMT
I think the guy and i stay with Zombie Tools for this niche... There's a lot of good quality "tactical" or "post-apocalyptic" blades out there, and thinking you will receive a properly tempered blade as claimed by the maker is not falling for buzzwords or hype. Scorpion Swords ads aren't even lurid in comparison to APOC or Zombie Tools ad copies. It's just that nobody thought a durable spring temper was an unrealistic expectation for these handmade-in-the-USA thick, slab handle swords. I mean, Holger literally beaten the sh*t out of a Ryan Sword "Outdoor Waki" for 120 USD! The thing is still straight, some tiny rolls, and its badly scratched - thats all. With ScorpSwords construction method he should be able to handle proper heat treatment AND maintain a fair price. |
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 7, 2021 8:20:58 GMT
I stayed away from this thread because I was frankly disgusted by the way the whole thing had been hijacked. Chris makes his swords to fill a certain niche that the people who have layered on the attacks here have 'evolved' from. But if every sword maker kept refining their technique and products, where does that leave people who want a sub $300 beater like this?
Remember - Chris admitted that the sword that started this WAS defective and I provided a video from Scorpion showing how it SHOULD have been tempered. Chris suggested that it's not a good idea to try to flex test a sword too much and that it is better a sword takes a set than snaps or breaks. He then offered to have it remade (as well as some additional options). And again - a video was shown of what it should have been like (this video only had 18 views and is privately listed - so it goes to show you people did not even bother, just kept on with their chosen narrative!):
Apparently, this is not good enough and I don't even know how to start to address some of the hateful comments that were glibly made in this thread - especially the character assassination attempts. Chris made a lemon and seemed to mix up some terminology. But now some of you are aren't just rubbing someone's nose in a mistake they tried to correct, you are wishing to end someone's livelihood after 13 years with claims that are now so far out of context that it's a caricature!
Wishing people to go out of business who have been members here for years in good standing is just nasty. Sure, they may not have 'evolved their product' as much as some of you, but they are simply trying to supply a type of sword that quite a few people are fond of. Just because they aren't refined as what some of you can make does not make them 'junk' and frankly, I expected more from craftsmen involved in the same industry rather than trolling and keyboard warrior moments.
Honestly, this is just disgusting now - keep this crap to Facebook and insert some basic civility if you wish to continue to post here.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,114
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Post by admin on Jun 7, 2021 11:16:23 GMT
I have decided to temporarily lock this thread while everything is evaluated in detail.
Thanks,
- Admin
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,114
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Post by admin on Jun 9, 2021 2:25:28 GMT
Okay, deep breath…
Some positives have come of this messy thread – though it has been harder than it should have been to find them thanks to how it deteriorated in the way that it did..
Anyway, here is the long and short of it (pardon the pun) – after digging deeper and reviewing the available information, the ratio of decently tempered longer Scorpion Sword designs to ‘lemons’ IS unacceptably high, and for this reason after consulting with them, we have decided to discontinue the longer swords in the SBG Exclusive line up available from Scorpion Swords, and to concentrate on what they do best..
Swords like this one (yes, one of their swords was used as a prop in 'Elementary' by CBS):
Anyone who has one of the longer swords on order with the SBG sword store can cancel and receive a full refund or store credit – for the OP, I believe that Scorpion Swords will be reaching out to him again to see if he wants to continue with a remake that will flex like this one:
However, other fair options will be offered including changing to a different model or receiving a full refund (plus some store credit from SBG for the inconvenience).
In the meantime, Scorpion are going back to the drawing board – avoiding longer bladed swords and working on some new stouter blades to replace the swords discontinued from the Doomsday Line with 3 new designs approved and entering the prototype phase.
This did not have to be this hard – the hostility and nastiness that raised its head in this thread was uncalled for and will no longer be tolerated. If ANYONE regardless of standing wants to turn this thread back to their own personal agenda again or tries to derail it again you might as well delete your account at the same time as you WILL be banned.
REMEMBER: If you are civil – you can say anything here and any feedback can and is used to improve product lines. And while we had to salvage the good out of this train wreck of a thread – some good has come of it. And I truly hope that moving forward, people here will act more like the community of sword makers, collectors, sellers and enthusiasts that we all are and accept it when a sword maker admits they made a mistake rather than try to run them into the ground for it when they are trying to make it right..
I will unlock the thread so that the resolution of the OPs issue is documented to a satisfactory conclusion – but last warning. Anyone who wants to try and set this back into a flame war or witch hunt, this is not the time or the place. Be civil or go away.
- Admin
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Post by aldarith on Jun 9, 2021 6:07:41 GMT
Following for interests sake.
Some years ago I contacted Scorpion re/ a gladius I had designed and they rejected the design.
The reason cited was that it did not conform to their assembly process (it was peened and not a slab handle).
I was offered the chance to have them redesign the sword to work with their style of construction, but I declined as I didn't want to compromise on construction.
My interactions at said time were good, but no money changed hands so I never became a customer, which is just as well - it isn't my niche. That said I do think there is a niche for this product, it just might not be with 'historical' sword people.
I think the company would do really well if in this restructuring they decided to focus more on blades-as-tools than blades-as-cool. There is such a big market right now for tacticool pieces and prepping so I think that with the new focus that might be a direction to go in after the treatment and QC are sorted out.
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Post by aldarith on Jun 9, 2021 21:24:22 GMT
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 11, 2021 5:17:59 GMT
Following for interests sake. Some years ago I contacted Scorpion re/ a gladius I had designed and they rejected the design. The reason cited was that it did not conform to their assembly process (it was peened and not a slab handle). I was offered the chance to have them redesign the sword to work with their style of construction, but I declined as I didn't want to compromise on construction. My interactions at said time were good, but no money changed hands so I never became a customer, which is just as well - it isn't my niche. That said I do think there is a niche for this product, it just might not be with 'historical' sword people. I think the company would do really well if in this restructuring they decided to focus more on blades-as-tools than blades-as-cool. There is such a big market right now for tacticool pieces and prepping so I think that with the new focus that might be a direction to go in after the treatment and QC are sorted out. tangs and slab handles certainly are different dynamically. As a newbie I can confirm it is a lot of pondering that goes into gaining respect for tangs. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 11, 2021 11:44:26 GMT
Tangs are much underrated, overlooked, or misunderstood by many especially novices. They take a beating and must be up to par.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 12, 2021 3:25:23 GMT
Tangs are much underrated, overlooked, or misunderstood by many especially novices. They take a beating and must be up to par. Although, I don't know if my tangs of some swords are wrong, improperly heat treated, or I just am overly abusive. While using my swords to successfully cut, or have bad cuts for some, but for some only good cuts,, my tangs end up getting a bit of an angle to them. They bend a bit to one side. Is this just an aspect of swords that they all bend a bit at the tang? It's not terribly dramatic, but it's definitely noticeable. It doesn't seem to impact my interaction with the sword much, but I am assuming that it must be that the tangs are annealed during peening or perhaps they never were properly heat treated. I keep thinking that peening should be done cold hammering instead of by heating. |
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