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Post by GUEST on Sept 1, 2012 20:58:40 GMT
Wan't aimming my statement at you K Vander Linde it was aimed at Catvalet. I was going to stay out of this one, should have stayed out.
As far as a FN FAL not being good for 400yds., they have plenty of accuracy for 400 yds and more. Not the most accurate rifle but better than people give them credit for, a FN FAL will keep up with a standard M1A. I got rid of My Springfield M1A kept my FN FAL, yes the M1A was was more accurate for the first few shot, but has it heated up it started string to the left and up. This a rifle which had national match mods and bedding by a army armour who build the army team match rifles. I have had 3 M1A all of them did this.The FN FAL groups did open up but stayed center. The FN FAL is a better battle rifle, the M1A a better match rifle as long as you don't rapid fire it to fast and a large numder of rounds.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 1, 2012 21:17:25 GMT
i know you weren't aming it at me just wanted to clairify my statement because it was a bit vauge and is parchily the reason people are bickering. hope it did not come acrossed as standoffish to you.
i agree on FN FAL, i have a Quarter sized group with my AR at 250yards with iron sights, the FAL can definatly be a 400yard gun.
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Post by Elrikk on Sept 2, 2012 0:27:39 GMT
Um...I plan more for a Katrina, 911, Bandar Aceh, scenario than Mad max or Fallout 3.
If LEO's see you carrying any weapons you'll be fooked.
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 2, 2012 3:17:04 GMT
bullsemprini, unless you are Canadian/New Zealand and can get Norinco M14's. Springfield is the only complete, production M14 clone in the US. Bare receivers from custom shops start at $400, you can not build or buy a M14 clone for $400, otherwise I would have done it already :lol:
Yes, yes, you said depending on state/country, but I'm Texican and OP is American, so we are arguing American prices sempriniit :twisted:
QFT
I plan for Reavers and tornadoes.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Sept 2, 2012 13:21:01 GMT
I remember someone on SBG saying they remember the good ole days when they could get an M1 for around $200. Of course that was decades ago when buying a gun didn't mean having an anal probe by big brother and the US dollar was actually worth something.
I've got my home prepared for SHTF/EOTWAWKI but I'm also realistic in the fact that I'd have a hard time transporting all that I've packed away for that. I DO have a bug-out bag/INCH bag that is much lighter and part of that is my little break action .22/20ga kit gun.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Sept 2, 2012 14:17:30 GMT
I find your reported performance unbelievable, and so rare that one should not place any credence upon it.
Accuracy and Iron
I shot a sub 2" 5-shot group (m855) with my Colt HBAR 20" at 100 yards 20 years ago when I could see the front sight (presbyopia). That is sub 2 MOA (just). Add some environment and POI and group size change dramatically.
"A quarter sized group at 250 yards" is statistically remarkable. A quarter is 15/16ths in diameter. Such a group at 100 yards translates into <1 MOA -- rather impressive shooting for a stock AR with or without scope. At 200 yards this translates into < .5 MOA, a group size few commercial bolt guns can achieve unless one spends $2K for accurized action (bolt face trued, locking lugs lapped, etc). At 250 yards this is < .4 MOA, which is approaching John Feamster's "Black Magic: The Ultra Accurate AR-15" benchgun territory. Of course none of this is achieved with iron, but with high mag optics (20x+).
A .224" projectile (you did not mention the load you were shooting) can range from a Ballistic Coefficient (BC) of .272 (55gr FMJ) to .301 (69gr HPBT Match). The latter will undergo almost 10" of drift in a full value 10-mph crosswind at 300 yards.
So, how achievable is sub .4 MOA with iron given ammunution and environment? Not very.
Range
What is a 400 yard gun? It had better have some optics, otherwise it will be very difficut to be effective against most targets which tend to disappear when one is focusing on the front sight. High power shooters can do what they do because they are placing a high contrast black dot (20" target black) on a flat front post. A man with a gun against a hillside is a completely different matter.
Recommendation
The trigger on the FAL sucks (heavy and inconsistent), seriously limiting its utility as a "precision" rifle. Mounting optics is a challenge as well. I recommend an Armalight AR-10 (or equiv) flat top, two-stage match or tuned single stage trigger with optics (ACOG 4x32 is excellent). One can easily bust 1 gal milk jugs at 400 yards with such a combo.
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Post by GUEST on Sept 2, 2012 15:24:58 GMT
Don't think any one was thinking of sniper accuracy at 400 yds just combat accuracy. Combat accuracy is being able to hit a man size target to be able to wound not always kill. A FN FAL is able to to this with no problem. People worry to much about being able to get little grougs off the bench to much these days. I can shoot 1 1/2in groups at 100 yds with my Springfield FN FAL using iron sights, it hasn't got a great trigger but i can manage it. Don't care if it hard to mount a scope on it's a combat rifle.
My HK 91 has a even wrost trigger, but when I do my part I can shoot under 1in groups with it at 100yds using iron sights
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 2, 2012 15:39:28 GMT
I've never heard of such a beast. Details!
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Post by GUEST on Sept 2, 2012 19:11:09 GMT
Back less than 20 year ago Springfield Armory made alot of different rifles. M1A, BM59, a HK 91 clone, M1 carbine, M1 Garand , and a FN FAL they called it a SAR 48.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 3, 2012 0:13:33 GMT
Reading is fundamental. Point out where I said anything about an M14.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 3, 2012 0:54:16 GMT
i was using custome made amo, made it my self. don't remember the specks for it but its writen down here some where. Easy explanation for presision shooting, take your AR to a sporting clay shoot, ask for wable setting or Flurry. One shot one clay, after a few years you pick up how to shoot a target around 6" to 4" in diamiter going around 30mph and then all is well for stasionary targets. When i use a shotgun the clays don't even have chance, at least the AR is sporting.
Recomendation don't try this at your local gun range they probably wont allow it, unless it goes of into no where.
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Sam H
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Posts: 1,099
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Post by Sam H on Sept 3, 2012 0:59:30 GMT
You shoot trap with a rifle? Are you nuts? You ever consider what happens to the bullets that you let fly? Its actions like that make things difficult for gun owners everywhere.
As for precision shooting - shooting trap, even wobble, isn't equivalent to shooting what you claim to be 15/16" groups at 250 yards with an AR.
I was originally giving you the benefit of the doubt thinking that MAYBE you were some crack shot with an amazing custom AR that was accurized to hell but now I'm pushing the BS button too.
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 3, 2012 1:09:09 GMT
Brain fart, I read M1 as M1A, not M1 Garand.
Show me a reproduction M1 Garand that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The only low cost purveyor of M1's I know of is the CMP.
In my book 30-06 is a poor choice for a prepper caliber because it is in short supply and expensive, because just about hte only guns that shoot it are antiques or hunting rifles that get maybe 50 rounds through them a year.
Buy it cheap and stack it deep.
Fallen, that FAL clone is giving me a very confused semprini. I did a little mroe research, is that an Imbel made import?
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 3, 2012 1:38:35 GMT
Quite frankly i understand what your saying with the "BS button" i make alot of money when people push that button. An yes i know where the bullets go, off into nowhere leteraly, private range with a copple of miles of just nothing but sand birms an trees. I'm a very respectiable gun owner and compition shooter in my area, gun safty is first and to me that means understanding what can happen if procedures are not followed.As for trap when I was 16-17 My friend Alex and i were head to head for state chapion, we tied, he took over all and i got the sub divisions, reason being the over all prise was useless for me but helpful to him....... maby i should just make a video when i get the chance... and the grouping with the AR is not standing, its from a prone or benched.
this will be my last post on this thred as it no longer pretains to its origional topic, unless some one wants me to explain common mistakes people make which is why people don't have this kind of percission when they shoot.
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 3, 2012 1:59:23 GMT
Buddy, I just hope your shooting is straighter than your typing/spelling,because if they are comparable, I think the phrase is "couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at ten yards".
OT, there are a lot more important things than guns for disaster preparedness. Bottled water, beans, band-aids are all needed in roughly that order before we get to bullets, bivouac and backpacks. We tend to loose sight of this because, lets face it, 5,000 5.56 is way sexier than 300lbs of beans and rice.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 3, 2012 2:02:55 GMT
yes i know my spelling sucks. thats what happens when your teacher tries to teach you english through sight words. :lol:
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 3, 2012 2:12:45 GMT
But surely you know where the "Shift" key is? Heck I cut my pinky finger in half and STILL manage to hit shift every now and then with it.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 3, 2012 2:31:42 GMT
I thought I was the only one without a hole pinky. I had mine explode when it was smashed, tip is entierly emptey and with out feeling.
I'm not good at typing(or shooting handguns), never have been and probably never will be.
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 3, 2012 2:38:51 GMT
Hate to nag, but your responses went from bad spelling and grammar, to bad grammar, to perfectly acceptable. Keep up with the improvement!
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Post by GUEST on Sept 3, 2012 8:32:18 GMT
Kent yes it's a Imbel one of the best FN FAL made this is not a kit gun. The Springfield sar 48 were completely build by Imbel. Imbel isn't a clone it a liensce made FN FAL rifle.You do known Springfied doesn't make most of their firearms just have their name stamp on them.
K Vander Linden with your wild claims to have lost all creditiably. 250 yd quarter size grougs would only be possible with a laser beam. Don't care if you do load your own ammo,so do I, what is your load. I known bench rest people even with their heavy remote fire rail rifles they can do this. Their rail rifles are the most percision built machines you will ever see.
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