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Post by dantheshotokankid on Aug 30, 2012 13:03:37 GMT
I'm just saying that i personally believe that the 22 wouldnt really do any good in this situation, because again let's say if i have to panic shoot and i get someone in the body. It would hurt no doubt, but it wouldnt knock them back.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 30, 2012 16:32:26 GMT
I know of very few guns that would be able to knock someone back. There's a thread about that already. I strongly suggest that you go get some real world experience before you start talking about things you don't really know a lot about.
Do a, lot of research and go shoot a bunch of different guns at a variety of targets. Forget all the crap Hollywood is feeding you and actually learn something worthwhile. Also listen to others who have a while lot more experience than you. There's certain members here who when they post I shut up and read/listen.
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Post by KentsOkay on Aug 30, 2012 16:44:00 GMT
Dude, I regret to inform you that you are horribly misinformed about ballistics and .22's
1) No one ever said .22 LR was a self defense weapon. It isn't. It is for practicing shooting so that when you are shooting under stress, you hit your target. I pretty much only shoot pistols when under stress. I jump rope and do pushups before shooting so my heart rate is up, my arms are twitchy, sweat is in my eyes, the whole nine yards. I practice mozambiqueing multiple targets, multiple times, while moving from and to cover. Just because you are "pretty good" at shooting some evil cans while at the range or ranch does not mean you will be good under stress. If you truly train in martial arts, you should know it takes years to master your skills, shooting is no different.
2) If you want a gun to get into gun fights with, don't get a Mosin. If all you had to do to win a fight is put as powerful of a bullet as you can carry into someone we'd still be using bolt action rifles with 5 round internal magazines. We don't. We use intermediate cartridges in 30 round magazines.
3) Bullets will not knock you back, this is Hollywood falsehood. The word you are looking for is "stopping power". It works like this:
9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP, 38 spc, and .357magnum are all common handgun rounds. They all kind of suck, but they are the best compromise between able to do damage and being able to be shot with good follow-up shots. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting three more times. That's why capacity and ability to shoot under stress is important. 44 spc, 44 magnum, 454 casull, 500 S&W are all massive magnum calibers, these suck because you can't effectively get follow up shots with them. There only self-defense role is shooting bears in the face and hoping you hit them with that one shot. Again, shooting under stress is key, but these rounds are so sempriniing expensive you can never sempriniing shoot them, and after shooting em about 10 times, you are like YUP IM DONE. The best bear gun advice I have ever heard is file down the front sight so it doesn't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your ass.
5.56/.223, 300 blackout, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc, and 7.62x39 (ak rounds) are intermediate rifle calibers. These are what the military has known for 50 years to be the best way to shoot people you don't like. They are big enough to do horrific damage, but small enough that you can carry a semprini load. The .223 Remington is one of the most common cartridges in America.
308 win/7.62x51, 7.62x54r, 30-06, and 303 are full size rifle calibers. These are what we thought where the bee's knee's back in the first world war, and into the second. They go a much greater distance than intermediate rounds, and put bigger holes through more things (they penetrate cover better), however your usual soldier doesn't need this much power, so they give one dude in a squad one for making longer shots, and put machine guns in these caliber on vehicles. Hunters tend to prefer these calibers or higher for things bigger than deer. Disadvantage of these rounds is they are slower to shoot and they weigh more so you can't carry as many.
Yes there are minute ballistic differences between all of these cartridges, but honestly, these differences are only worth arguing about on the internet, they will all makes you just as dead if the shooter puts them into you in the right places.
Back to .22 SHooting to kill, it's fr squirrels, rabbits, and maybe fox. It's a great round for getting small game, and it's a great round to train with. Why? quality 22LR right now is about 5 cents a round, quality 9mm is about 20 cents a round, quality 223/5.56 is about 35 cents a round. 308/7.62x51 is about 45 cents a round. See where this is going? Shooting is expensive. If all that you can afford right now is a hundred dollar rifle, make it a hundred dollar rifle you can afford to shoot a lot of.
THere are plenty of people in this world who have been killed with .22 LR. Believe me, I would take a ruger 10/22 with a 30 round magazine any day over a pointy stick, because 30 rounds center of mass is going to semprini your day up, no matter what the caliber.
TL;DR version:
Shot placement is what matters, you get good with shot placement with .22 Literally no one except for mall-ninjas and sleezy gun shop owners will tell you to buy anything other than a .22 as a first rifle. Ruger 10/22 is more or less the excepted king of .22
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Post by DavidW on Aug 30, 2012 16:53:26 GMT
Gun noob here, are there rifles out there that can be chambered for both .22LR and 5.56? Or like a gun where you can change out the receiver quickly (if indeed that's the part that matters in multiple-caliber guns)?
I personally like both the 5.56 and .22 LR. The .22 is cheap as dirt, quiet (which is good if trying to avoid attention of raiders or in a zombie scenario), virtually no recoil/kickback, and since the ammo is cheap and small, you can stockpile it easily, for defense (holing up somewhere). As for "no, it's too weak", just take multiple shots to center mass when confronting a hostile threat, and since the ammo is so easy to stockpile, even for a BOB, you can afford to double or triple tap.
The 5.56 is also relatively cheap and most importantly, widely available. It also allows for hunting larger game and taking on zombies/raiders better, if noise level is not a problem. Knowing that you have a combat ready firearm also helps you psychologically.
So IMO, to have a firearm that can utilize both of those rounds would be a nice all-rounder. :mrgreen:
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Post by KentsOkay on Aug 30, 2012 17:00:31 GMT
Yes sir there is, this gun: The AR-15 can quickly be adapted from .223 Remington/5.56 NATO to .22LR by swapping the bolt and inserting a .22LR magazine. Takes about 30 seconds to complete. I've got a CMMG chamber adapter. The only two disadvantages of this set up is the AR barrel spin is all wrong for the 22lr cartridge, so accuracy is meh beyond 50 yards. Also, it dumps dirty, dirty 22lr crud into your chamber. Other than that, I love it. Because this thread is too much seriousness about making intelligent firearm purchasing decisions: What I will wear into the PAW: What I wear as to not look like a maniac:
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 30, 2012 21:08:49 GMT
Kents had already proposed the AR-15 with a .22lr drop-in conversion.
I'm going to go one step further and propose the AR-15 with a dedicated .22lr upper receiver.
What that means is that you essentially have 2 guns with one lower receiver. When you want to shoot .223/5.56 you put the .223/5.56 upper receiver on the gun and you're good to go. When you want to shoot .22lr you push two retainer pins out, take the .223/5.56 upper off, put the .22lr upper on and push the two retainer pins back in. Takes less than 30 seconds if you have the uppers at ready.
The beauty in this is that you can mount optics on each receiver the optics will remain zeroed for the caliber you're shooting each and every time you put the upper on. .22lr have vastly different ballistics than .223/5.56 so if you have an AR with a .223/5.56 upper and use a drop-in .22lr conversion kit your optics will have to be re-zeroed for that particular caliber. The other beautiful thing about having two different dedicated uppers is that the barrels will be rifled appropriately for each caliber. This means better accuracy regardless of which caliber you're shooting. The only real drawback is the fact that you're going to be lugging more weight but if you're just going to the range and back it doesn't really matter.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Aug 30, 2012 21:40:14 GMT
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 30, 2012 21:49:05 GMT
I've seen them. While they're neat toys they're hardly practical.
I sure as hell wouldn't be lugging ANY .50BMG or for that matter even .50 Beowulf in a SHTF situation.
5x7 ammo is nice, light and powerful but its not exactly easy to find. No good for a SHTF situation either.
IMHO both those are just expensive range toys.
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Post by dantheshotokankid on Aug 31, 2012 1:55:50 GMT
alright i understand, but what i'm saying is that i'm use to distance shooting. But thank you, i see now that you're talking about. But yeah i'll look into the 22's and other small caliber rifles like that. BTW how much did it cost you to build that AR piece by piece? like the average price for a part?
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 31, 2012 2:03:44 GMT
It'd be easier to buy an AR from say Palmetto State Armory and then reverse engineer it if you want to learn how to build one. That's what I did with the first AR I ever got. It'd actually be about the same cost or perhaps even cheaper to buy it pre-built from PSA or a DPMS from say Wal-Mart.
I like that - its pretty funny - average price per part. Parts range drastically in price depending on what part you're talking about ranging from springs that cost $.20 to barrels and other parts that could cost hundreds of dollars. Hell a good optic and BUIS system will set you back hundreds of dollars.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Aug 31, 2012 2:21:43 GMT
yep its cheaper to buy one already made and then mod. example Panther AR $600-$800 Rock river lower reciver only $600-$800+ on the high end. my AR cost me like $500 with mods, i love charity auctions.
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Post by KentsOkay on Aug 31, 2012 4:11:29 GMT
I bought the upper from a forum member on Zombie Squad, cost me $325. It is a spike's tactical upper with ADCO match barrel and a BCM gunfighter charging handle. Right now PSA has some stupid good deals on uppers right now. I bought a Colt bolt from same guy for $150. Yes I paid a bit more for this part, buy once, cry once. PSA has good bolts too, going for about $130, sometimes you can get them with the upper for less $$$ I spent $150 on the CMMG chamber adaptor I put a YHM smooth free float handguard on the rifle, that cost me $120, +$30 for a barrel wrench. You don't need to muck around with this, I just felt like being fancy. Free float handguard give a slight improvement in accuracy. I bought Chinese knock-off Magpul Back Up SIghts (MBUS) for $15 shipped from TinyDeal. I've compared them side by side to the real deal, same freaking thing. This is the only part I approve of buying cheap knock-off semprini of, but I may buy a $30 red dot sight just for semprinis n giggles unti lI have the $450 for an Aimpoint Micro. I bought the complete assembled lower from JoeBob Outfitters for $130. Because you are 18 you WILL need a parent, not an older brother or friend, a parent, to go into the gunshop with you to pick it up and have it legally transferred. However, you can buy the same damn thing from the gunshop, you just can't get it shipped in because it's an incomplete lower. Yeah, the ATF has weird rules. At 18 with a clean history, you will have no trouble purchasing complete rifles. My lower is the only part of this rifle that would be "no go" according to US military standards, it is a polymer lower. I have no regrets with buying this lower, I do not believe it will fail me under normal or intense firing conditions, I do believe it will fail me if I lean it against a curb and run a truck over it. Also, it has a freaking SWEET trigger. AR-15 30 round USGI magazines are $10 from PSA, I have 3, + two Magpul mags. I will probably just buy magpuls, they soooo nice. One box of dirty russian ammo costs $5.50, gives me 20 rounds. I bought a Maglite XL50 flashlight and a mount for $40 total. It is absolutely essential to have this on any weapon you intend to use for self defense, more on that later. That's is $680.50 to make a rifle that shoots, 1 mag, 1 box of ammo, and a mounted flashlight for making a positive identification of your target. I spent $950 total on fancy pants handguard and .22 chamber adapter.
I have spent $150 for 500 rounds of 5.56 nato, and I have spent around $50 for about a thousand rounds of .22LRDo not buy a freefloat handguard on your first gun, I did it because I'm a jack ass and I justified it because I was getting a match barrel. I will probably never buy a complete upper again as I now have the knowledge to assemble an upper from it's most basic components. I will wait another 2 or so years before I build my next AR-15. It's going to be a Short Barrel Rifle in .300 Blackout with a suppressor. My next firearm purchase will either be a Sig SP2022 9mm pistol for $350 or a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm for $450. Right now I practice my pistol skills at the range with a friend's M&P 9, and at home with a M&P 9 CO2 gun. Other firearm purchases I am keeping my out for are a 357 Magnum Ruger revolver, a lever action rifle in 357 magnum, and a Ruger 10/22 takedown model. I have 12g Remington 780 and a 12g Mossberg 500. I don't care for either, I'd sell 'em but they have sentimental value to my mom. I have a Remington 700 lever action in .308 Winchester with a Leopuld scope, also from my mom. Of all of these, the AR15 is the only one in a "ready to rock and roll" state. Read this article and the others at the links:www.milcopptactical.com/fighting.htmOther useful articles: www.milcopptactical.com/blogAs far as brand, for budget PSA for parts and complete rifles, S&W MP15 for complete rifles, BCM, Spike's, CMMG, and Noveske for parts. Until someone proves mo very wrong, I am going to continue to promote my hatred of DPMS, Del-Ton, Olympic, DOublestar, BUshmaster, RRA, Hesse, and Vulcan. I have seen failures with these rifles and if you ask industry experts, as in people that teach other people how to shoot aggressively/defensively/whatever (like Milcopp Tactical), they will tell you these are the rifles that fail under stressed and heavy use. I say semprini 'em, especially when you can build or buy quality PSA and S&W's for the same price or less. Some of these brands aren't "bad" per se, but they just aren't as "good". Except for Olympic, Vulcan, and Hesse. The will punch you in the semprini and make fun of your dog, and if you call customer service, CS will call your grandma and say mean things to her.
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Post by Catvalet on Sept 1, 2012 5:59:51 GMT
OK I just skimmed all 6 pages of this thread. I don't know much about swords compared to many here, But I do know guns:
1. Read "Boston's Gun Bible" by Boston T. Party. Read it again. While you at it, read everything else he has written, especially Molon Labe (as in Leonidas).
2. Buy a 10/22 and stock at least 2,000 rounds of ammo. Not much knock down, but cheap to shoot, dependable, and Vewy, vewy quiet, as Elmer Fudd used to say.
3. Mosin-Nagants will break your shoulder AND wake the dead. Since they are so cheap (about $65 and 440 rounds for about 80 bucks) this is a good gun to bury in PVC somewhere quiet, for when the brown shirts come looking for your guns.
4. You need a main battle rifle, in 30 cal-either 30-06 or .308- See #1 above for suggestions. M-1, M-1A (civilian M-14) or FN-FAL. Reach out and touch them. Stock no less than 2000 rounds.
5. A close quarters carbine, either AR-15 or AK is lighter weight weapon and ammo than #4. AR-15 is my choice since 1000 rounds of .223 is the same weight as about 200 rounds of .308. Stock no less than 3000 rounds
6. 12 gauge tactical with 00 buckshot. Mossberg is a cheap but ok option, i like Benelli. 20" barrel
7. Someone mentioned tactical flashlights. Mounted on a barrel, this gives the bad guy something to aim at in the dark. Hold in the off-hand.
8. 22 pistol, such as a Ruger Mark V. Beretta or Walther if a southpawSee #2 above.
9. Semi auto pistol in .45 or 9mm. 9mm is available world wide but pales as a stopper compared to the .45. The old Texas Ranger when asked why he carried a .45, responded, "Because they don't make a .46" Springfield XD is cheap, easy to strip, and has a grip safety, one up on the Glock. minimum of 1000 rounds
10. The above is a lot of money, but ammo will be worth more than gold if the SHTF.
Have a plan-or a place- to get this stuff out of dodge if you live in a manjor urban area.
11. I am now thinking about the best option for a main battle bow.....
12. After reading Boston, read everything the late great Col. Jeff Cooper wrote. Google his commentaries from Guns and Ammo magazine. They are available on line. Very smart man who could write the King's English like very few ever. We will not see his like again.
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Post by DavidW on Sept 1, 2012 11:20:47 GMT
OP is talking about carrying things for survival in a bug out bag, not a whole armory.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Sept 1, 2012 13:04:21 GMT
Maybe this poster doesn't have a bug out bag. Maybe he/she has a bug out box truck? :lol:
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 1, 2012 14:25:14 GMT
I have to disagree with you on a few points. If you are shooting past 400 yards, you probably are shooting more "proactively defensive" if you know what I mean. FN FAL's just don't have the accuracy for those kinds of shots, and M1A's/M14 clones are expensive. I have heard of people getting good accuracy with the PTR GI which hovers around a grand with $3 mags. But all of this is moot, if you are trying to be thrifty (as the OP obviously is) a bolt action should do JUST FINE.
Find me this $65 Mosin, I'm buying one right now if it is.
If I hold the flashlight in my off hand, how the semprini do I aim?
Modern defensive handgun rounds are minute in differences 9mm gives me the most rounds and the quickest followup shots. That said, I WILL one day reload .45 and .460 Rowland, because those gorramn Reavers ain't gonna kill themselves :lol:
Grip safeties are for fudds. I never use the safety on my guns except when required by range rules or shooting with people who don't know my rules. If you have gone so far as to load a weapon, charge the weapon, point the weapon in an unsafe direction AND pull the trigger, you are doing it wrong.
Not everyone thinks Jeff Cooper is amazing, just saying. This does not stop me from having a confused semprini everytime I look at a Ruger Gunsite scout.
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Post by GUEST on Sept 1, 2012 14:42:17 GMT
You guys need to toughed up if the recoil for a Mosin Nagats hurts you. Are you going to let Russian women be tougher than you are. Hunderds of Russian women were the best sniper in Russia during WWII. I'm not going to say any Russian woman or man is tougher than me. The ballistic or the russian round is between a 30/06 and a 308 so why would it be so loud inless you are talking about a real short barrel.
Don't sound like you know guns very well just repeating other peoples info.
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Post by KentsOkay on Sept 1, 2012 15:01:36 GMT
Agreement and counter points. No, it will not break/dislocate your shoulder. Thats what the Boys anti tank rifle was all about. The recoil is on par with any other full size rifle, BUT, the other two 30 caliber weapons I shoot (remington 700 and M1 Garand) have lower perceived recoil because the 700 has a nice squishy rubber recoil reducer, and the M1 is semi automatic. The greater weight of the M1 coupled with the movement of the action helps reduce recoil as well. So yes it does shove a little harder, and yes i will be a bit sore after putting a dent in a spam can, but in the grand scheme of things, man the semprini up. Now the Obrez is a completely different beast. It is a flame belching, slug hucking weapon of doom. If the bullet doesn't kill, the fireball will:
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 1, 2012 17:15:49 GMT
i would like to clarify (sorry bad english) that when i said it "kicks like a mule" i also menchioned "if you don't know how to shoot".
that part is very important. Mosin is great rifel, but there are better ones for new shooters.
As for the Russian deal, i'm half Russian and yes the women were excelent snipers, what most people do not get though is they knew how to shoot, again i refrence my past statement. if you know how to shoot gun theres no problem.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Sept 1, 2012 17:41:27 GMT
If a $1000 rifle is a decent price, then you need to do some shopping around for M1s. An M1 repro with composite stock can be had from anywhere between $400 and $700, depending on your state/country. I have seen antique M1 Garands going for as much as $2k, but you are talking pristine condition, never taken to the battlefield, with certificates of authenticity and that sort of BS. When you find one at the gun show that Was carried by the seller's father/grandfather in WWII or Korea, you're looking more at $700 due to the stock being obviously worn or replaced.
This is what I have been planning to make my 1st Rifle for a long time. Handguns and a shotgun have been just a tad more important in the meantime, as have been things that I actually use rather than stick in a corner or a safe and wait till the end of the world. It will probably also be my last and only rifle. I hunt with my bow. I carry my pistol and my wife carries hers, and the shotgun will be secured by the bed for home defense. Rifle? Eh. Target shooting a couple times a year maybe? Really, making arrows and carrying around the tools to do so is a lot easier than trying to reload firearm ammunition after the end of the world. I would really encourage learning that skill.
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