Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 15:59:28 GMT
I didn't want to say it... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 16:10:11 GMT
Marc, what can I do to prove my point? I have stated things Arno said himself, I've shown pictures of his blades that prove their quality,... what else can I do? Except inventing you to come to Germany to speak to Arno Eckhardt? Well, I DO have a basis of comparison. I have handled one of his swords and cut with it. I have also handled an albion knight and a ATrim makers mark. They ALL are VERY beautiful swords, but I think Arno's swords are better. In quality, not in handling, though. About facts, I DO have them. I have the information about steel and hardness, I have facts about what an ATrim and an Arno can handle. What else do I need?
Brendan, why can't I have it both ways? I want a sword to be hard and to be tough/flexible. And Arno's swords ARE EXACTLY THAT!! Please read my post again, Yes I said, the harder the better but just AS LONG AS THE SWORD DOESN'T LOOSE TOUGHNESS AND FLEXIBILITY!! Is this that hard to understand? I say it again: A sword with 60HRC that flexes as well as any sword with 50HRC is a better sword than a sword with 50HRC that also flexes very well. Period. And, who said Arno's blades are TH? I said they have a softer center! So they aren't TH. Why the hell can't people read my WHOLE post before answering and saying things that are simply not true?
About that Arno guy having claimed to have reinvented the wheel, in fact he says the opposite himself. He doesn't want to do that, he wants to learn from the old masters. And I think he can claim to have gone very far on that way. Well, he makes super swords and I have yet to see a sword from a different maker that is as good as his. So until someone shows me a sword that is as good as Arno's blades, I guess he does make the best swords. If you can prove me wrong, please do so. I would like to see another sword of that quality.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 16:12:43 GMT
Brenno, I didn't know Tnker's swords were that hard. Thanks for telling me that. It seems like he knows how to make a blade ;-) 58HRC, that's pretty darn good.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 16:13:40 GMT
Oh see, we actually can agree on something, Marc. Nice to know ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 16:14:43 GMT
Who's Daniel Watson? Never heard of him. I'm ashamed ;-)
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Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 16:17:59 GMT
Oh see, we actually can agree on something, Marc. Nice to know ;-) Sure... i dont think we cant agree... hell were having an intelligent conversation, correct? believe me, I'm not arguing or being a jerk (at least I hope not... ) just discussing things to the best of my understanding... I agree , Arno makes great swords .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 16:23:23 GMT
No, hell, you're not a jerk AT ALL. I actually love that discussion over here. We all are discussing things to the best of our understanding. I hope we can all learn something in here. That's why this forum is so great! :-)
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Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 16:57:35 GMT
Another thing, I don't know but is there any pattern welded sword from ATrim, Albion or Tinker out there that is comparable to Arno's spatha? I know Kevin Cashen does some pattern welding but I've never handled one of his swords so I don't know how good and tough they are. I think that spatha simply reflects VERY good craftmenship and is an impressive display of Arno's capabilities that are hard to mach. !! Heres a nice Tinker sword...
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 25, 2009 16:57:43 GMT
I also thought of Mr. Watson as I was reading...
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 25, 2009 16:58:56 GMT
Who's Daniel Watson? Never heard of him. I'm ashamed ;-) Daniel Watson.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 17:00:29 GMT
About facts, I DO have them. I have the information about steel and hardness, I have facts about what an ATrim and an Arno can handle. What else do I need? Brendan, why can't I have it both ways? I want a sword to be hard and to be tough/flexible. And Arno's swords ARE EXACTLY THAT!! Please read my post again, Yes I said, the harder the better but just AS LONG AS THE SWORD DOESN'T LOOSE TOUGHNESS AND FLEXIBILITY!! Is this that hard to understand? I say it again: A sword with 60HRC that flexes as well as any sword with 50HRC is a better sword than a sword with 50HRC that also flexes very well. Period. Because you are stating physical impossibilities when it comes to steel. Period. Harder flexes less. The only possibility that would have part of the blade that hard and still flex the way you claim is one that is differentially tempered. Your claims about hardness and strength is like claiming water is simultaneously at 50 degrees C. and 100 degress C. Is that possible? Yes. If it's being differentially heated. If you're talking a homogeneous substance it's a physical impossibility. And as for "I've cut with it, believe me!" I'll re-quote one of the first sayings I picked up in my work: "The plural of anecdote is not data. And the singular of anecdote less." You want to prove that this steel is superior. Let's first come up with a common frame of reference. Describe reproducible, empirical tests of one or more factors--flex, stress tests, cutting substances, whatever pleases you. Reduce or eliminate the human element of the equation. If we're agreeable, then let's test Arno's steel against some other modern steels. Hell, if the li'l ol' Mythbusters guys can do it... That is what constitutes scientific proof. Not a single person's subjective experience. You are perfectly free to your opinions, your preferences and your choices, as am I, but science is not based on opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 17:19:27 GMT
Can we just end the discussion about Arno's swords, please? It seems like this discussion is about to take an ugly turn, with Angel Swords being brought up and all. Anyways, I do want to get a good sword that I can have fun with for a few years, I just want to get the best "bang for my buck", so to speak. I'm not sure if I will have more fun with a plain Atrim or a fancy furniture VA signature, or a cheap practical.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 18:02:11 GMT
Because you are stating physical impossibilities when it comes to steel. Period. Harder flexes less. The only possibility that would have part of the blade that hard and still flex the way you claim is one that is differentially tempered. You know, I said that Arno's swords ARE differently tempered. The center of his blades are softer than the edge. I stated that like 3 times, so I don't know why you can't read my whole post. Anyways, Jonathan is right, let's stop that discussion now. About Arno's steel, he uses mostly C60, 55 Si 7 and ck 75. I doubt these names tell you anything, but whatever. If you really want to know more about his swords, learn German and read is website. I'm tired of translating stuff. Actually, I never said Arno's steel is superior, I said that HE makes his swords superior. That's something totally different. Whatever, anyone doubting Arno's work should buy one of his swords and find out what I mean. Marc, that swords is really nice. I don't like that hilt at all, the blade looks really good. That sword isn't pattern welded, though. Does anybody know how hard Albions are? They don't say it on their website.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 25, 2009 18:07:02 GMT
there's been a lot of talk about hardness here which I find interesting and I want to know more about. now I'm not saying one should do a TH this hard but. . . I've done some pretty heavy cutting with my Kokoro Ichi which is supposed to have an edge hardess of 63. the blade feels a little funny compared to my other katana. it feels springy. why? I don't know. maybe the spine is less pearlite and springy intsead of spongy (relatively speaking of course). I've cut winter bamboo and my cutting stand and numerous other things. I haven't had any trouble at all with the blade. It has been very tough and I have seen it flex quite a bit. this is in no way to say anything anyone said was wrong just relating my experience and wondering how it lines up with the info we have.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 18:45:54 GMT
Brendon!!! See end of quote. Wow, hope I haven't scared anyone off with my words, if so I will go back and delete them all. I wasn't talking about occasionally hitting the stand, I was talking about the long term affects of constant abuse. Every sword will fail over time, especially if it is well loved, but if you only occasionally abuse it (the occasional miscut or banging on the cutting stand) that's fine. My advice if you are worried about hitting the stand, is make a stand that consists of a single post that is only slightly wider in diameter than the bottom of the bottle, that way you lower the risk of hitting the stand considerably. Well loving a sword is part of the fun Like I said, it would be bloody to love your sword!
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 25, 2009 19:42:35 GMT
Hey Jonathan, a sword made by Angus Trim himself will almost certainly be better than one designed by Angus Trim and produced in China. Same with a Tinker blade. If you're strongly concerned about durability you would be better off buying a handmade Atrim or Tinker than anything from a production line at a Chinese forge. But if all your going to do is cut bottles every day and maybe some mats I really don't think you have anything to worry about. There are always trade-offs. You can get the nice scabbard and fittings on a blade from a production forge, or a hand made blade without the fancy fittings. If the fittings are more important to you go with that, if the better blade makes a big difference then go that way instead. For your light use, you'll not likely notice much difference in blade performance. None of us can tell you what's going to be better for you personally.
There's not necessarily anything wrong with being a little paranoid about blade durability. I used to buy inexpensive tools to work on my car/bike but after breaking several during the hard use I put them through I started buying more expensive tools so I wouldn't have to deal with getting part way done and then needing to go replace a tool. I still wouldn't spend the money for Snap-On tools though as my use was never that hard.
Put your water filled bottles on top of a Styrofoam or plastic cut turned upside down on the top of your cutting stand, that will give you a buffer between the bottle and the stand if you flub a cut.
On Steel- Flexibility is mostly a result of cross-sectional thickness. An unhardened piece of steel and an equally thick hardened/tempered piece of steel will both flex the same amount when the same amount of force is applied, but the hardened/tempered steel will be able to withstand a greater force, bend further, and then still return to true. DH and TH will depend on what you want from your sword, one is not better than the other. A through hardened blade in the lower 50's is a nice compromise between edge holding and blade toughness. On a DH sword, the edge can be high 50's/low60's with the center at mid 40's. That gives you more edge holding with the toughness of the softer center. But guess what, it's not nearly as forgiving as a TH blade and will more easily take a set. Depends on what you want, one is not better or worse than the other.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 19:54:37 GMT
When it comes to double edged swords that are of differential hardness, how well does the edge hold up when the blade is flexed? It's harder and thusly more brittle, and while the core is fine with the flex, is the edge harmed in any way?
M.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 20:46:50 GMT
Jonathan, even on heavy use you will be hard pressed to find out the limit of a Tinker or ATrim designed sword. Those sword can withstand things you would never do (chopping up some metal plates or cutting down a tree). I really wouldn't worry about the VA practical's durability. If you managed to break a VA practical or a Tinker Hanwei sword by abusing the heck out of it a true ATrim would have been damaged too by doing the same stuff. It might not break, but it would still be damaged. So again, buy the VA and have fun. If it breaks (what I highly doubt) you can get another one. But trough cutting waterbottles you will never break a VA, unless you REALLY suck at cutting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 0:37:50 GMT
Cheness: you sound like an advertising commercial, so I have to wonder what interest you hold in a company or person to talk him up like that? You also make many unsubstantiated claims backed up by "learn german and read his site" or better "because he said so." Do you believe everything you read as well? How many ATrim swords have you handled that make you feel confident enough to make comments like this;
Now if someone like Shoots made this comment I'd have no issue with it, but I've never seen any cutting videos or evidence that you have handled enough of his product to make this kind of comment.
Oh dear someone had to bring up Daniel Watson, not even going to go there, moving right along.
Jonathan: If you have the money to pick up a genuine ATrim, go for the genuine ATrim every time because a forge in china may do a good job but a sword designed and made by the smith who designed it will always be better. I'd like to pick up a genuine ATrim one day, too bad our shipping laws are so ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 0:59:07 GMT
Good reply Blood And +1 for ya........SanMarc.
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