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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 25, 2009 3:30:14 GMT
I wouldn't call it abuse, baring any accidents. I'd call it use and with use of any tool there is wear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 3:37:29 GMT
Would you consider water bottle cutting every day abuse? Well, if you were trying it with your smallsword! Seriously, though, no, I wouldn't. Provided your cutting is going well. If the cuts aren't working, if the edge geometry or sharpening isn't right, if your technique is a bit off (though imho I find that explanation overblown, there are a lot of swords that total newbies I know can cut 2Ls effortlessly with) ... if the cuts aren't working in any case and the bottles are getting batted, then fix the issue or it could be called abuse. 2 liters is nearly five pounds of water. That's alot of mass to hit if it doesn't give. But if you're sailing through, hey, a couple bottles a day will help keep the psychiatrist away! I don't think anyone on here doesn't experience cutting as good therapy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 3:47:14 GMT
If I get a new VA I will probably get it extra sharp, so it should cut well. I also will not start cutting until I feel comfortable swinging the sword, so I hope that I won't make too many mistakes whilst cutting bottles. However, I will probably have several accidents. I will probably strike the cutting stand several times, which is why I want to make sure that I don't get an overly fragile sword. I know that RicWilly has owned a practical longsword for over a year, and he says that his is in fine condition. I would feel more comfortable with an Atrim 1313, but I will miss the scabbard and belt some.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 3:53:06 GMT
Banging the cutting stand every once in a while is a hazard we all face now and again, just don't make a habit of it Also I think it is important that when you are cutting you empty yourself of fear and apprehension. You are more likely to make mistakes if you over think it, trust yourself and trust your weapon, don't hesitate. I would quite honestly rather have a bare bladed sword that I like, than go for something that isn't my favourite, just to get a scabbard and belt, those things can always come later
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 4:39:24 GMT
The licensed copy's are not as good as one from the original maker, but for the price, not bad, the sword in question, just got through the QC and will be replaced with one that was made right.
Some one in china is not working at that factory any more....SanMarc.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 25, 2009 6:23:51 GMT
Jon you're just having a case of the nerves. stick to your plan I think you'll be glad you did. the information in this thread doesn't change anything we talked about. this is part of that 20% that's all. you'll likely never notice it. and if you do get a lemon Sonny will pop in with a glass of lemonaide and fix you right up. no fears.
even a windlass or coldsteel sword can be a well loved weapon and least years and years dispite some abuse. SOME abuse not CONSTANT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 6:51:50 GMT
Wow, hope I haven't scared anyone off with my words, if so I will go back and delete them all. I wasn't talking about occasionally hitting the stand, I was talking about the long term affects of constant abuse. Every sword will fail over time, especially if it is well loved, but if you only occasionally abuse it (the occasional miscut or banging on the cutting stand) that's fine. My advice if you are worried about hitting the stand, is make a stand that consists of a single post that is only slightly wider in diameter than the bottom of the bottle, that way you lower the risk of hitting the stand considerably. Well loving a sword is part of the fun
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 7:15:03 GMT
Hmm, loving your sword might be bloody as well!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 8:25:18 GMT
Like someone (bloodwraith?) said before, many things about smithing and stuff is lost now, because people forgot it due to the changing need. Nowbody really needs a sword today nor did anybody 300 years ago. Thant's why we forgot so many techniques. And that's why medieval swords were better sometimes than a modern replica.
About that project, they DID do some cristaline structure test and also a lot other stuff. That page is just a tiny little bit of the whole project. If you spoke German you would find that out. That's why I offered to translate some paragraphes.
About Eckhardt's swords, they may not outperform an ATrim or a Tinker in handling but they certainly do in durability. I've seen stuff done with them, it was just sick! In my opinion the peened hilt makes the whole thing sturdier and even not considering that, a blade with 60HRC is simply tougher than a blade with 54, as long as it is still flexible of course and doesn't break. I've seen one of his long swords cleaving a young tree 15cm thick in diameter in half with one strike, I've seen his blade cutting through some nails without any edge damage and cutting a 2mm helmet nearly in half. That speaks well of it's durability I think. Do that with an ATrim and I will be very impressed.
Another thing, I don't know but is there any pattern welded sword from ATrim, Albion or Tinker out there that is comparable to Arno's spatha? I know Kevin Cashen does some pattern welding but I've never handled one of his swords so I don't know how good and tough they are. I think that spatha simply reflects VERY good craftmenship and is an impressive display of Arno's capabilities that are hard to mach. Albions are good, but hell, they're not even forged!! Same goes for other smiths that make their swords via stock removal. The swords might be good but they also show that there are not many guys who can handforge such a great spatha. I dare say that NO Albion guy nor any sword maker who uses chinese forges or makes swords via stock removal can come close in perfection to Arno's work. That's REAL art!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 12:28:14 GMT
About the rockwell number of 60HRC, I think you can trust Arno. He has a very big and complicated looking testing machine that is very accurate in measuring the hardness. Since Arno does only custom work he handforges every single one of his swords and is able to test the hardness of every single blade and not of only one out of a batch. So I'd say, if Arno states the sword has 60HRC, then the sword really has 60HRc and not between 55 and 65. He says on his website that he can get any desired hardness with only minimal variance (about 1 HRC).
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 25, 2009 12:43:31 GMT
Sanmarc- ?!?
CF - 60Rc isn't tough. And it's not suitable for a sword as it simply cant flex as far without snapping - it's brittle. The problem is solved by differential hardening, or differential tempering (not the same thing). i.e. making the spine or centre MUCH softer. Through hardened 54 is tougher than TH60. And 50 is even tougher still. Theres not way that's gonna snap. The ONLY reason hardness is favourable is for edge holding ability. But being hard and brittle is not tough - and thus we seek a comprimise, between edge holding and toughness. usually around 48 to 54Rc. If tinker wanted his swords at 60 RC all hed have to do is say the word. It's not hard, or special, or difficult to achieve. You just temper it cooler.
If you're gonna take a sword to cut a tree down, you'd want it more like 45Rc. Ever wonder why axes use mild steel heads? Thats for cutting trees down.
Just consider, if you're gonna take to something with a hammer, what's gonna survive, a sheet of glass or a sheet of rubber.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 15:15:50 GMT
Maybe I am being paranoid. I'm sure that the VA swords will be suitable for my purposes, but my confidence was shaken by all of these different posts. Like I said, Ric's 304S is fine after a year of cutting, so I think that if I get a signature or practical, I will be alright. But good lord, after hearing all of the praise directed at Mr. Angus Trim, one can't help but be tempted to get one of his swords.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 15:18:25 GMT
What I meant with tougher was that if you take a blade with 60HRC and slam it into a blade with 50HRC, guess what blade gets damaged more badly? Of course the one with 50HRC (not hitting edge against edge now). So as longs as the blade has 60HRC and is not brittle it's better than a blade with 50HRC that is not brittle, too. For a sword, the harder the better, as long as it doesn't take away the flexibility and resitance to break. And that's exactly the case with Arno's blades. Did you see the flex test with his 60HRC blade? That blade is NOT brittle AT ALL and also has 60HRC. Sounds perfect, doesn't it? For fighting that sword would be much better than a sword with 50HRC that flexes just as well. I assure you, Arno's blades are as resistent to breaking/taking a set as any ATrim or Albion. The reason why axes have a lower hardness is the need for a axe to be tough. Edge holding is not that important. But if you could now make an axe with a edge hardness of 60HRC that is still tough, that axe would be better than a normal axe, right? The same goes for swords. Arno's swords are hard and flexible, which is exactly what you want. I think he leaves the center of the blade softer than the edges, but I'm not sure about that. The reason why Albions are softer is that the Albion forge simply isn't able to make a sword as hard as Arno's blades without loosing to much toughness. Now guess, who's the better swordsmith? I would prefer an Eckhardt over an Albion/Tinker/ATrim/whatever all the time. Simply because his swords are better.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 15:27:29 GMT
Jonathan, you ARE being paranoid ;-) Now get that VA practical and have fun! Like you said, once you got a job, you can buy the best blade you can afford, but for now, be happy with what you can get!! Your first sword doesn't need to be the best sword it just needs to be a good sword you can have fun with. There will be time to buy a Tinker or Albion. Just WAIT!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 15:35:10 GMT
Forgot to add There will be time to go custom, too! ;-)
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 15:47:19 GMT
\ Poppycock... you have NO basis of comparison... no real facts to base that on... neither do I or anyone else... however if you'll read the post by the SWORDMAKER that posted youll see that HARDER IS BETTER for swords is simply NOT TRUE. Honestly? I'm pretty sure that blade is NOT 62 rockwells throughout... because martensite wont flex like that without taking a bunch of stress.... but who knows, Tinkers are around 58... supposedly... I'm a big fan of "prove it to me" though... just because its included in teh sales pitch does not mean I'm going to automatically believe it. Sorry. ummmm the 60 HRC blade because it isnt as ductile and impact resistant as the 50 HRC... thats pretty much common knowledge... thats teh reason for differential hardening... differential tempering... spring temper... etc. shock absorbtion and ductility . Here i agree with you 100%
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 25, 2009 15:49:12 GMT
"So as longs as the blade has 60HRC and is not brittle it's better than a blade with 50HRC that is not brittle, too. " Hard is more brittle than soft. You cant have it both ways. You can only find a compromise. And TH60 is not a good thing for a sword. For a knife yes. Sword no.
"For a sword, the harder the better" I disagree. Like I said. If every other swordmaker out there thought 60 was a good idea all they'd need to do is temper at 200C. But they don't.
"The reason why axes have a lower hardness is the need for a axe to be tough" Aren't we talking about toughness? Thats my point. Soft is tough. Hard is not tough.
Without having looked into this Arno guy everything you've said (to me) points to someone claiming to have reinvented the wheel, like he makes super swords that noone else can.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 25, 2009 15:52:22 GMT
Thats right Marc, and Tinkers are only 58 at the edge, he then torches the centre to around 48 to give them the toughness they need to carry that edge. Then he draws the tangs down to around 43, why, to make them tougher. If he's doing a through hardened blade I don't believe he'd go over 54 - by design, not cos he cant make a blade 60Rc, anyone can.
(those numbers are off the top of my head, but you get my point. Visit his site to get the actual figures he aims for)
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 15:52:57 GMT
Without having looked into this Arno guy everything you've said (to me) points to someone claiming to have reinvented the wheel, like he makes super swords that noone else can. reminiscent of Daniel Watson, no?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 25, 2009 15:55:49 GMT
I didn't want to say it...
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