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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 16:56:05 GMT
I dont know how to fix this is it fixable, omg im gunna die I already did inside im not kidding this isnt funny I feel like a piece of my soul has been f***ing ripped out I was cutting with my bristol for the first time today it was fun the bristol is amazing I nicked the stand once and it took a chunk out of the stand the sword was completely fine, not a scratch or anything hocked at its power i tried a couple small branches(like 1/2-1 1/2") on a nearby tree and the sword destroyed them all with not even a scratch however the guard became a little loose so I took the sword apart and found everything in order the hex nut was just loose from the impacts so I go to screw the thing back together I do so its all tight and good and then i tighten it a little bit more to make sure it never comes loose again (that could be dangerous) and what happens ? IT F***ING SNAPS THE THREADED PART OF THE TANG..... If anyone knows any way this can be fixed or anything that would be amazing, because this is actually gonna kill me if I cant fix it
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Avery
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"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
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Post by Avery on Jul 18, 2009 17:03:07 GMT
ohhhhhh, ouch!! My advice would be to get ahold of Sonny. How much force did you put into the last turn? I can't tell from the pics if the steel looks sheared or just broke. Man, that sucks, I feel for ya.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 18, 2009 17:20:59 GMT
I agree, talk to Sonny tell him EVERYTHING. if he cannot help you then it's gonna be tough but MAYBE just MAYBE you could either get a smaller wheel pommel or cut down that one a bit and then peen it on. I guess you could take a file to the shoulders of the blade and slide the who hit assembly forward to make up the lost few inches. you really put that little bit of back-end tang to the test buddy, but I am surprised it failed. I have had a beloved sword break on me, I know how you feel, and you have my deepest condolences. please let us know how things turn out and how they progress. we'll help if we can. we're here for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 17:26:49 GMT
it wouldnt be a good idea to try and weld it back on at all would it ? I mean im pretty sure its not, but i have no reason behind that train of thought just sounds bad to me
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 18, 2009 17:36:10 GMT
NO! don't do that! it won't be strong enough.
a tang CAN be welded on but it needs to be done BEFORE heat treat not after. this is my understanding. well not the WHOLE tang
what I'm talking about is the threaded part on the VA practicals. that was welded on before heat treat and has done well, with very few failures known. mine has been very strong.
but in your case don't do it.
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Post by Sonny Suttles on Jul 18, 2009 19:05:02 GMT
Hey Hairu, I sent you a PM.
Let's see what we can do.
Sonny
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 19:06:55 GMT
Actually, you can weld it back on...you just need a forge and a heat shield to protect the HT on the blade. Forge welding will make the tang as good as new. Course not many people have access to such things. Check your local SCA group...many have home forges and maybe you could get one of them to help...assuming sonny canĀ“t help.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 18, 2009 19:28:52 GMT
Aw.... Bummer. I'm not sure how tight you were trying to make it, but it sounds like you might have gone a bit too far... you don't want to overtighten as you'll strip the threads... snapping the threaded tang is extreme tho, that sucks. On a slightly related note... I know a lot of people around here chop branches with their swords... am I the only guy that dosn't do that?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 18, 2009 19:55:06 GMT
Oooo, bummer. Yeah, branches are a no-no in my mind. That's what machetes and saws are for. Looks like the threaded part of the tang is welded on? It appears from the pic that the weld doesn't go all the way through and that's where it snapped, could be mistaken. I'm sure Sonny will take care of you. I don't think I'd expect a straight trade for a new one since you kind of abused it a bit before it broke. If you had gotten the sword from a different vendor who wouldn't work with you, I would say yes, you can fix it. In addition to what Cold Napalm said, you could tig weld it back together with the tang clamped in a large metal vise to act as a heat sink. Though that would mean that the tang would no longer be hardened, only the blade. Would be best to re-do the HT afterward. Too bad, that was a really nice looking sword.
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Post by Sonny Suttles on Jul 18, 2009 20:01:37 GMT
I discussed the breakage with Gus. He said he could not say for sure without seeing the sword what caused the break. I will say that it is stated in our use and warranty that these are for soft targets only. I cannot say if cutting 1 and 1/2 inch branches had some effect or over tightening the thread or what. It might have been an inclusion of some sort in the metal. Anyway, long story short. We have decided to replace the Sword. We just hope he the in the future you go buy a Machete to clear your bushes and prune your trees. ;D ;D ;D
Sonny
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Jul 18, 2009 20:11:32 GMT
On a slightly related note... I know a lot of people around here chop branches with their swords... am I the only guy that dosn't do that? I have done so, I'm ashamed to say. I don't to it anymore, though. Just too dangerous. I will say I'm impressed with Sonnys' quick response and resolution of this. Quite frankly he could've just said the sword was abused and tough luck. Yet another on a long list of reasons why he and Gus are so respected.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 18, 2009 20:25:08 GMT
I will say I'm impressed with Sonny's' quick response and resolution of this. Quite frankly he could've just said the sword was abused and tough luck. Yet another on a long list of reasons why he and Gus are so respected. Very much so... I have massive respect for Sonny and Valiant Armoury... not only is he completely changing whats possible in production swords... he stands behind his product and takes care of his customers, where ever they are and from whomever they may have bought the sword. I think thats unprecedented. My only concern is, I hope he does not put himself out there TOO much... replacing everyone sword anytime they have trouble regardless of what vendor sold it or what was done with it... it may be amazing costumer service and incredibly noble, but I fear what it may do for the bottom line. I, for one, want Sonny and Valiant Armoury to do very well, so they keep bring new and interesting swords to the market.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 20:29:36 GMT
I discussed the breakage with Gus. He said he could not say for sure without seeing the sword what caused the break. I will say that it is stated in our use and warranty that these are for soft targets only. I cannot say if cutting 1 and 1/2 inch branches had some effect or over tightening the thread or what. It might have been an inclusion of some sort in the metal. Anyway, long story short. We have decided to replace the Sword. We just hope he the in the future you go buy a Machete to clear your bushes and prune your trees. ;D ;D ;D Sonny Either that or buy a Tinker! The man himself took his swords to dead wood in his friend's back yard and they came out just fine! He's got a thread about it in the mfg/vendors board! Seriously though I have to say I'm very impressed with Sonny's decision regarding the sword. Honestly I'd have though that cutting tree branches etc would have voided any warranty on the sword and violated any return/replacement policies with most if not all vendors. I must say that whenever I decide to use a sword to cut anything other than tatami, paper or pool noodles I have already decided that regardless what happens I wouldn't attempt to seek replacement/repair from the vendor or mfg... since I'm clearly in violation of their policies. Its a conscious choice on my part and as such I take full responsibility for what happens afterwards. That said please bear in mind that this is an amazing customer service event on Sonny's and Gus' side - one not to be casually overlooked. Sonny's A+ in my books for this... perhaps I need to start looking at his lineup of products...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 20:36:25 GMT
This is one of the reasons why i choose a valiant as my first european sword , iv heard nothing but good, no great things about them . Sonny your customer service is first rate , im hoping to receive my valiant arming sword from KOA next week, i cant wait . Keep up the good work .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 21:21:11 GMT
Actually I'm kinda mad at Sonny. He keeps coming up with new ways to part me from my hard earned money Sonny, please stop having such great products and even better customer service. It's going to force me to spend all my disposable income on VA products. But seriously, the worst I cut with my swords was a few low hanging branches no more than a 1/8" around. And even then I don't like doing it. Kudos to Sonny for taking the high road and helping out Hairu. Just don't make a habit of it! We need VA to make money so you can continue to put out such high quality products.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 1:33:36 GMT
I just recently acquired the Dagesse from Sonny's standard line. I read the review where that model was struck thousands of times on a tire pell. I received it in 3 days and couldn't believe how tight everything is.
I've been looking at the Signature and Regal line and now reading how he stands behind his products I will definately plan on buying one of his more expensive swords. Have also encouraged others to check out the VA website.
3 cheers for Sonny and VA!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 2:01:51 GMT
wow hairu, you're one lucky thingamabob! And as for Sonny? Your excellent customer service disturbs me greatly
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 19, 2009 2:16:48 GMT
Yes, it is good of Sonny. This sword is reparable. Without close inspection it is hard to see what's happened. It does look (from these photos) like there is a void at that point where it broke. I wonder how the threaded rod is done, if it's ground down or welded on, and how. "From these photos" it looks like the threaded rod is butt welded to a reduced section ground from the tang. And that is doomed to fail! The closeup shows a clear flat section at the base of the threaded rod, where the rod was cut, surrounded by weld. That has got to change IF that's how they are doing it. There are two ways it should be be recommended to be done: a. recess the prethreaded rod into a dovetail/slot 1" deep in the tang and surround that by weld. (Chris Fields does it this way) b. Grind the tang down to a suitably sized rod and cut the thread into it by hand (Angus Trim himself does it this way) I use both methods depending on what I'm trying to make. Both are a bit more work and take longer to fit and get right, and have room for error in the performance, which can lead to delays, whereas butt welding prethreaded rod on is fast and a bit more fool proof, but is not suitable regardless. If that's what they are doing, then these failures will recurr. (Infact the closer I look at these pics the more positive I am that that's how it's been done. The threaded rod is too perfect. Hand cut threads wander a bit. And the thread cut doesn't terminate like a handcut one does, instead it just merges and gets buried in the weld. Plus in the end shot you can see where the threaded rod has been cut, and the weld added)
But no, to repair it butt welding that piece back on wont work. A new rod will have do be dovetailed deep into the tang.
Heat treatment is not a problem. The tang does not have to be hard. In fact the softer it is the more durable and less prone to cracking it will be. Tinker notes that he draws his down to about 43(?) Rc. Albion and other's I've seen don't even quench/harden the tangs at all. See here at 1:16
Thus you can repair that even after HT. So should you wish to weld a new rod to the tang, you'd cut out a long slot, about 1" deep, into the end of the tang, removing the old rod. You'd recess a new rod in there, and weld solid right around the perimeter on both sides (I use O/A) to secure that rod. Then it can be ground down. After the weld has cooled I'd heat it up to critical to normalise the mild and surrounding HC steel, and reduce grain. Then after that has cooled I'd temper it to a light blue / silver colour to be sure it's nice and soft just incase it had air hardened at all. It's an involved process to do it right. There aren't many shortcuts in swordmaking. And when you take shortcuts this is what happens. Maybe it's cheaper to replace the failures than take longer to make every sword, but "that's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye".
If this happens to anyone and it's out of warranty we swordmakers can fix it for you. Hairu, I'm just glad it happened in your hand and not while you were cutting, sending the blade spearing into your little brother 20 feet away or something.
On a properly made tang I would expect the grip to crack well before the rod should snap during tightening. Unless the impacts had fractured it. However during impact the weight of the pommel hinges on the broad keyed section at the base of the pommel, and that's where the stress is focussed. There's no flex half way down the rod in that area, as the pommel can't flex. So it's odd to see it snap there. Leading a suspicion to a structural flaw in the rod, indeed.
Sonny is a good chap hey? I reckon he's a credit to the industry and will be a market leader before he knows it. As long as he keeps cracking the whip and making sure the forge makes blades the right way. Not taking shortcuts like butt welding rods on.
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Post by hotspur on Jul 19, 2009 2:58:29 GMT
Some thoughts and tips regarding Gus' own made swords and the threaded Valiant line. First, something that will occur as these settle in, the blade seats to the cross a little bit, so it is not at all unusual for them to loosen a wee bit after initial use. It is ok to tighten these a little bit at a time but consider the thread sizes and how much effort one may apply when tightening. Gus used to use soft(er) round nuts that were not only hard to grip but were also helpfully self limiting when snugging these up. Even with a small L shape wrench, these allen screw caps can be way overtightened. Even the round ones could be overtightened when using visegrips and other tools. There was (and maybe a potential issue at times even now) a case of the nut bottoming out on the threads and no amount of force was snugging things up until some nuts would fail instead of the tang. This can also occur if the threads are not long enough. The same issue from different perspectives. I know many enjoy the fact that they can dissassemble these swords but first ask yourself why. Folk complain about them loosening and it is often just that first settling. Both of my old round nut swords settled in the first sessions but have remained rock solid after near a decade. The times I have had them apart were minimal and tightening after even more minimal. Some are using thread lock goo such as Loc-Tite but I have never found occasion to use it. One could also use a wind of plumbers tape, dental floss or something fairly benign like fingernail polish or just about any laquer. Again, I have never found the need and my swords are what some might refer to as veterans. I am supplying here some torque specifications for both sae and metric. The threads in question are probably better measured in inch pounds but foot pounds might give some a better view on small threads. The threads on either the Gus or Valiant swords really only need about eight ft pounds at the most and a lot less will get the job done. If someone is using a somewhat more substantial wrench like a 3/8" drive, be careful with these. Really very careful. Even the short allen L types can generate well more than what you need on these. Compound any leather that may squish. Go snug and then less than a quarter turn at a time. If you had to go more than a full turn it is either over-tightened or not snug to begin with. Well, mebbe more at times but try eigth to quarter turn increments once snug. These are teeny tiny threads so much as threads go. Be gentle. I'm not saying everyone should have familiarity with or own torque wrenches but always remember Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin Vinny" when she explains torque wrenches and turning it "just right" regarding a dripping faucet. I don't know if Sonny and Christian include some of these basics in care and feeding of and I would have to assume that if not, many figure that such information is as common as common sense. Some simply don't have the exposure yet to judge these things. We aren't looking for bicycle axle tight, we aren't even looking for more than a nylon license plate screw might afford. Easy does it and best of luck with these. Cheers Hotspur; a standard small L 5mm wrench can go way tighter than one might think. On the other hand, I have managed to twist wrenches the same size when something was overtightened and or rusted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 3:32:13 GMT
I am glad Brendon said what needed to be said, I was thinking the same when I saw the weld, I weld thing on motorcycles and cant afford to have them brake, I would like to see the Valiant line be more durable, these swords should beable to take a licking and keep on tickin...SanMarc.
(Think of having that sword in the Field of battle!)
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