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Post by mythosequidae on Nov 2, 2008 0:55:05 GMT
It's strange to say the least. Hollywood leads us to believe that thousands of men waded into thousands of enemies. Hardly room there for a 38"blade. Friendly fire???
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 1:03:53 GMT
What sword would I carry if I were to magically appear in 1100 ad? Let's be practical here - none. I don't speak any old languages, I don't know the customs, I don't know the people, and I sure as hell don't know the landscape. To the locals, I would apppear as a strange foreigner, and with a sword, I'd appear as a threat. Not something I'd go for if I desired to actually live. Without a sword you'd look like easy pickings. For your clothes at the very least. For the meat on your bones if you're in the wrong area at the wrong time. You want a weapon in that time period. Period. (even the peasants went about armed, even if it was just an axe or knife) As for the crush of bodies, not likely anywhere near as often as you think. Spears and great weapons being wielded from behind the shield wall would make mincemeat out of the wall in no time. And yes, even when that crush is there, there is Plenty of room for a 30 inch blade (plus hilt). Much longer than that and you're behind the wall with the spears and greatweapons (because you're obviously not carrying a shield)...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 1:11:05 GMT
I believe that the manipular system of battle was pretty much lost after 476 AD and the modern armies at the time (1100 AD) reverted to more of a standard phalanx (something the Romans abandoned around 300 BC). It escapes me at the present, but I believe it was partially due to genuine loss of knowledge as well as increased use of archers and calvary.
Individual space on a battlefield was dangerous territory. You had to allow enough space for movement, but not have enough space for the enemy to break your line. Polearms / spears were still the primary weapon in 1100, coupled with your shield - it was the most efficient way to hold a line. I have read that the sword would come into play if your lines broke or you were making your advance into the enemies broken lines. Unless of course, your sword was used from horseback in which you essentially were a medieval lawnmower.
P.S.: My idea behind the thread was kind of a fun, creative take on the 'what is the best sub-$300 European sword?'.
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Post by rammstein on Nov 2, 2008 1:14:43 GMT
All period sources refute that. The participants at the battle of durham for example were described as scotsmen and englishmen pressed closer together than lovers.
I never said I didn't want a weapon. Just most certainly not a sword
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Post by shadowhowler on Nov 2, 2008 2:15:28 GMT
I never said I didn't want a weapon. Just most certainly not a sword Well... if we could go all 'Ash' and take a good Boomstick and a supply of ammo, who wouldn't? ;D
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Post by rammstein on Nov 2, 2008 2:21:28 GMT
I never said I didn't want a weapon. Just most certainly not a sword Well... if we could go all 'Ash' and take a good Boomstick and a supply of ammo, who wouldn't? ;D well I'd find that incredibly pointless. My goal in life isn't to kill anything living around me ![:P](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) . By referencing an alternate weapon, I'd go with what george silver calls the greatest - the staff.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 4:36:31 GMT
That's a long piece of wood to fit in a time machine!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 5:17:06 GMT
It's a 3-section Staff. Folds for easy storage...
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Post by kidcasanova on Nov 2, 2008 5:21:33 GMT
That's a long piece of wood to fit in a time machine! That's what she said! ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 5:37:53 GMT
Odingaard, this is still a relevant post, but interesting on the different opinions, Still Darksword, except for the stupid Canada law, they would be sold sharp, and look what they will do to that 55gal drum........That says it all!
SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 6:08:10 GMT
It certainly says that a thicker piece of heat treated 1060 steel is harder than and is able to damage a thinner piece of mild steel. They also offer a sharpening service so I'm not sure what you're trying to say about legal issues...
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Post by shadowhowler on Nov 2, 2008 6:09:20 GMT
well I'd find that incredibly pointless. My goal in life isn't to kill anything living around me ![:P](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) . An admirable goal, to be sure. However, I didn't assume that the point of taking a good sword back with you was to go around killing and plundering Viking style. I assumed it would be so that you could defend yourself should the need arise. You could certainly defend yourself well back in 1100AD with a gun and ammo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 6:26:12 GMT
It certainly says that a thicker piece of heat treated 1060 steel is harder than and is able to damage a thinner piece of mild steel. That said, the Albion line does the same test and didn't make as well a cut, with the windlass or Coldsteel, I would hesitate to try the same test.........
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 6:29:15 GMT
Some people have said here that they don't come sharpened, even though you can get them sharpened by the manufacture, it is mentioned on the websites about the legal issue, same for Windlass.....
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 2, 2008 6:39:43 GMT
I personally wouldn't put any sword into a steel barrel. For starters, it's not what swords are for.
The fact that the DSA made a "better cut" could be from any number of factors. Weight, for instance, could be its greatest advantage, as well as how this weight is distributed throughout the sword. A heavy DSA with a tremendously-forward POB will probably split just about anything more than an Albion or any sword of proper weight and balance.
Steel barrels are no testament to a sword's quality. They really just show how weak the steel in the barrels is...
But hey, if your idea of a good sword is a long axe with a short handle then by all means, DSA is great. Just make sure grind the blade down, replace the hilt furniture, and fill it all up with the best glue you can find.
Granted I don't own a DSA, my only Windlass is their retired (that's unusual, eh?) Viking Dirk, and my only Gen2 is a semi-custom 12th Century/Norman Dagger. Of all these, I'd take the Gen2 with me, really. My Hanwei William Marshall would stay home (speaking of overweight swords with poor balance...) but my AT 1315 would definitely come along for the ride. Though if I still had my Godfred, it'd come, too, along with my Hanwei Saxon Scramasax.
That is, if we were dealing with Europe.
I'm still waiting to hear that DSA's specs actually hold from that listed in their catalog to those measured by recipients before I try them myself, and even then I likely won't because a blunt sword is not at all what I'd want in 1100 AD, nor is it what I want now. If DSA manufactured their swords to be sharp, and adjusted a few things, I'd be keen to have a go. But in the end, a blunt sword is a blunt sword. You might put an edge on it, but it still won't behave nearly as a cutting sword should. Hence I don't want a DSA at this point.
Gen2 and Hanwei, with a lean to the former, is my preferred sub-$300 sword. Though I'd rather spend a bit more and get something better...
Oh, and if I were ever attacked by a steel barrel and all I had was a sword...I'm sure a Gen2 or Hanwei would do well enough. After all, I just have to knock it away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 6:46:06 GMT
I apologise for the quality of this picture, it is a screen capture of a youtube video. As one can tell, however, the Albion is a much thinner sword which cuts to a more than reasonable depth. ![](http://i36.tinypic.com/akes5w.png) ![](http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/darksword-barrel1.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 6:49:46 GMT
Ahhh, but they are designed to be sharpend.....And do you know just how hard it is to fight a Angry 55gal drum in a berserker rage! it moves very fast and you have to beable to jump around quick! ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Just like its hard to be a logger, hunting trees takes great skill, you have to sneak up on the tree and before it knows your there! cut it down.....same for the horrible 55gal drum, "O" great foe of the Norse man! ..........SanMarc.
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 2, 2008 7:10:52 GMT
Ahhh, but they are designed to be sharpend..... Unless DSA has completely rewritten their mission...no they aren't. Last I checked, DSA's are intended, and built, for reenactment, and thus are to be and to remain a safe, blunt piece of steel, in a sword-like shape. Sure, you can sharpen one. You can put an edge on any piece of solid steel. This doesn't mean it'll be good. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Ah, yes... I have seen the horror of an angered tree. Not pretty. Luckily steel barrels are smaller, though faster...nevertheless, a solid steel rod'll send 'em away! Even one with a sharpened edge, like a DSA sword. ![:-X](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/lipssealed.png)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 7:17:17 GMT
SanMarc, what are you trying to argue with respect to the 55 gallon drum test? I thought you were using it to justify some aspect of a sword's quality.
The Darksword Armoury is a heavier and thicker sword than the Albion used in that test and so one would expect it to cleave well... and it does, it seems to be a durable sword. You have said that the Albion swords did not perform as well in the test and that seems to me to be incorrect...
At over twice the price, I don't think the test shows the DSA in a negative light - they are simply reenactment swords that are meant to take a beating... not something I would use to fight with but potentially useful as a heavy pell tool to help increase the strength of my strikes. Heavier single hand swords certainly existed but for different roles, I imagine... such as for horseback use.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 9:43:13 GMT
DSA did not exist in 1100, so you would not be dealing with these issues anyway. I understand your viewpoint. If you want a turnkey blade, seek a mfgr. that utilizes cnc machining. When you receive a DSA tool, you can assume that the wooden grip will have very messy clearance issues with the tang. (I like plastic wood. It cures rock hard, and facilitates future take downs). You also have a thick edge to deal with. Accusharp. Full length, high pressure draws until no flatness is visible. Files. Cut into the blade center. Destroy that secondary bevel created by the carbide sharpener. Abrasive paper. 2000 grit final. Spiral sewn wheel loaded with green chrome rouge. Mirror. (If you like, many don't). The Anduril or Elf blades need a huge person, to be weilded with high performance. I'd like to see the skeptics get their hands on some of the lighter models. They are great tools and I will always defend them. I took a 2 handed Gothic apart and weighed the components for you. Blade is 2 lbs. and 4 ozs. Guard is 6.9 ozs. Pommel is 15.6 ozs., and the grip is 2.3 ozs. Total weight is 3 lbs. and 13 ozs. That sounds heavy, but I feel that if you were to handle one, you might feel inclined to make it the one you reach for first. Keep in mind that I have never touched an Albion or any of the other elites. I just feel that most of the persecution is unfounded, and that it is unfair to condemn a mfgr. for one or more undesirable models. People like Fords and they made the pinto. Forgive the topic deviation. If it was 1100, no current mfgr. would be an option, and you cannot even name any choice that you would have then anyhow. There also existed blades that have not crossed Mr. Oakeshott's eyes. Have you ever considered that some of the examples were found in good condition since they were so undesirable that they were discarded? That would not be a good example for the foundation of sword history. You clearly missed the point of this thread. The whole talk about paradox was a joke. The point is which sword do you trust with your LIFE right out of the box. No fiddling, no fixing. It's basically a question that combines who do you trust with the design AND quaility control. Although this does rule out customer service aspect of getting a sword. DSA might have QC problems...but I do admit that they do have some pretty nice CS. As for the sword I would reach for first, I'll grab my albion thanks. See I have a good sword...that was designed to be good from the get go. Yeah it cost WAY more...but I don't have to fiddle with it to make me LOVE the sword. My gen 2, while I like it, I won't love it until I spend 300 more dollars to reshape the blade a bit, re-heat treat it and re hilt it with better fittings. Course, by then I'll have spent as much as an albion or A&A anyways. And quite frankly, the fitting issues isn't just a few bad models...it's pretty much across the board bad. I haven't seen a cross of theirs that I consider to be sitting properly...EVER. Not even on reviews. Or even what I would assume is their best effort for the contest winner we had a while back. As for the fighting...fighting in SAND is tiring...however a lot of battles did not happen on the beach or dessert. Barring even that, I personally have been in a bridge battle in sand for over 2 hours. If those "trained" fighters couldn't do better then an overweight, have bronchatis and a busted knee fighter like myself, then I call foul. And at the SCA fighter practice, it's 1-2 hours (depending on time of year...we fight more in summer then winter) of fighting...unless I'm training new fighters in which case I can't fight as much. WMA is 3 hours...but there is a lot of talk and discussion and breaking down of interpretation going around. But to say a properly weight sword can't be swung around for more then a few minutes tell me you either 1) don't know how to swing a sword properly or 2) have no idea what a sword should actually be like. The box is from the quote buttom...on the right hand top corner of the message you wanna quote ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
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