pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 18, 2023 12:51:29 GMT
What are your opinions on how leaf bladed swords compare? The reason why I differentiate btw is that most later gladiuses ended up being straight edged. Sorry, I have none. I am not against leaf blades but never having used one I am going to have to abstain. I did neglect to mention that my main protection are outside walls surrounding the property we call muros. Razor wire, broken glass, ADT, cameras, a dog, security bars on all windows and sky lights. A capped iron fence on top of my lower muro. One outward opening door of steel. Probably because they do not conform to the OP. They are there, and people have tried to penetrate but have never succeeded in getting through all. I would prefer by far to avoid the legalities of sticking holes in people regardless. |
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Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2023 13:12:06 GMT
"No officer, I wasn't trying to kill him, just adding some holes to.... let the sun in."
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 18, 2023 13:30:32 GMT
I also like the idea of weapon and buckler.
It's small enough to use in tight places, and provides HTH protection.
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Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2023 13:42:23 GMT
I think the blade geometry would depend on if you have enough space to swing it and get enough momentum to slash. If it's a very narrow space go for something that stabs well. There are reviews of slash vs stab wound lethality and the stabs were much more lethal and would incapacitate someone much faster. It's also muuuuch easier to get a good stab in than a slash especially with a shield!
EDIT: I have been slashing at bottles with leaf blades, and the bite is much better because of the force concentration on the "cheek" of the leaf. But you need almost no power behind a thrust to skewer a bottle, I was really surprised on how easy it was because the tip of my blade wasn't really acute.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 18, 2023 15:31:53 GMT
For years I was a strong advocate of the thrust over the cut for a number of reasons that I won’t go into here. I now believe one cannot depend on either, so a cut-thrust blade would be the better choice. A curved blade such as is on my cutlass is ideal for an upwards thrust from below a shield and is extremely hard to block. I’ve also noticed that with some blades if the opponent fell, they themselves enlarge the wound channel. Note “if they fell”, they may not realize they are wounded. Some thrusting swords while being deadly have, I feel, have little stopping power.
I’ve read and studied as much as possible the wound effects and have come to the conclusion people react differently and no single reaction can be depended upon. I once had a patient with a penetrating knife wound over the heart that was ambulatory. I do not know whether the heart was punctured. The last I saw of him, he was stretched out on the table and the MO had a finger inserted into the chest feeling around. I’ve heard of victims with heart wounds to walk a mile or so before collapsing dead and others to immediately fall down, probably dead before hitting the deck.
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Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2023 15:41:32 GMT
You don't die from the bleeding in a heart wound but from something called heart tamponade. The blood pooling around the heart stops the heart from beating (more specifically from filling up between heartbeats). Also a penetrating wound to the heart can somewhat seal itself with every heartbeat because of the muscle contraction. Death depends on how much blood collects around the heart, not on how much visible bleeding there is. So if the blood pools around the heart, the person drops in 10-30 seconds. If the blood can flow out and does not pool, it can be hours. A stab or cut to one of the bigger arteries on the other hand will always be fatal in minutes due to blood loss. It also depends if the person goes into shock, the widening of the blood vessels means a blood pressure drop wich KOs someone instantly, thats the reason some people fall down like ragdolls when shot but don't die. Sudden blood pressure loss due to shock.
EDIT: Is this TMI?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 18, 2023 16:51:25 GMT
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Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2023 16:57:04 GMT
Too much information. I don't know if this isn't too graphic for the forum. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 18, 2023 17:14:04 GMT
Too much information. I don't know if this isn't too graphic for the forum. Then try a PM. I don’t live in the USA if means anything, and couldn’t find a suitable term with Wikipedia. |
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Post by glendon on May 19, 2023 0:45:04 GMT
For years I was a strong advocate of the thrust over the cut for a number of reasons that I won’t go into here. I now believe one cannot depend on either, so a cut-thrust blade would be the better choice. A curved blade such as is on my cutlass is ideal for an upwards thrust from below a shield and is extremely hard to block. I’ve also noticed that with some blades if the opponent fell, they themselves enlarge the wound channel. Note “if they fell”, they may not realize they are wounded. Some thrusting swords while being deadly have, I feel, have little stopping power. I’ve read and studied as much as possible the wound effects and have come to the conclusion people react differently and no single reaction can be depended upon. I once had a patient with a penetrating knife wound over the heart that was ambulatory. I do not know whether the heart was punctured. The last I saw of him, he was stretched out on the table and the MO had a finger inserted into the chest feeling around. I’ve heard of victims with heart wounds to walk a mile or so before collapsing dead and others to immediately fall down, probably dead before hitting the deck. I don't have personal experience--thank Goodness--but the book Swordsmen of the British Empire has numerous and interesting accounts of the grisly results of melee; slashed individuals were commonly seen literally putting pieces of themselves back into place and surviving to fight again. But even if not deadly, cuts were viewed as tending to put more guys out of immediate action. Most front-line swordsmen seemed insistent that thrusting was a poor choice to stop an attacker on foot; especially against dedicated foes, like the Indians, who weren't all that concerned about dying, but were very motivated to kill Englishmen. Thrusts killed, but usually not in a timely-enough fashion, and they left one exposed to riposte, especially when facing multiple opponents. So, in the spirit of the OP, if you decide you must depend upon a melee weapon system, it needs to be able to not merely kill, but to both parry attacks and incapacitate a suicidal attacker who will not quit. I second the cut-and-thrust; the blade must be heavy enough to be able to sever a forearm, short enough to do so with a limited indoor swing arc, and pointy and swift enough to take advantage of openings to safely thrust and recover. If no shield, the hilt should at least have a cross guard and knuckle bow. Del Tin's Dussack springs to mind:  |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 19, 2023 1:57:08 GMT
I have that book and its two sequels. During the Napoleonic Wars the Brits slashed making hideous wounds, I’ve seen the medical drawings, but with less fatalities percent wise than the French with their thrusting which was more fatal. The Brits tend to cut and a number of times failed to penetrate their adversary’s clothing, especially heavy winter overcoats and would have to be reminded to thrust, which normally did a better job. I vaguely remember one account of British cavalry about 20 strong meeting a larger force of Pander cavalry and charge in. Of the roughly 20 Brits two plus the CO survived. The two troopers were wounded. As for the CO, he came through unscratched and several victories. He blamed his success on cutting leaving his sword free, claiming that if he had thrusted, he’d been killed while extracting his blade. The cutting school made much to do over that. So, the argument thrust vs cuts continues.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2023 6:30:28 GMT
There's the big red line between hitting an opponent and getting hit by him.
The cut vs. thrust debate is a tactical treat for heavy cavalry attack charges which sometimes ignores the propensity to survive a fight
Both when hit don't incapacitate your opponent necessarily at once.
That's ok, if you ride by him but in a melee you have to reckon with the fight going on some time.
The main problem IMHO is defense.
So shields and guards are important.
Wide cuts are a form of defense too I think, look at the Montante great sword fighting style against several opponents.
Smaller cuts in confined space may give more defense than pure thrusting.
Btw. I own the DSA dussack which is very similar to the Del Tin.
It has a big wide guard but therefore I see problems when holding a shield in the other hand in confined space.
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Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 6:43:19 GMT
I'd say it depends on the blade. When talkinng about home defense, I think of shorter blades that tend to leave not as deep a cut as a big sword would. For short blades I say thrust over cut, for longer blades (28"/70cm+) the cuts are more devastating. Not more deadly, but mor shock inducing. The more nerves are damaged, the bigger the chance the other guy just drops out. There is also more immediate blood loss throug slashes. There are some points, like the liver, that might be effective as an immediate stop. But it all depends, you can't say this it more effective than that for sure. Every fight, every person is different. Some faint from the sight of blood, others are still fighting with 15 bullet holes.
I don't have any real world experience, and I don't intend to get any either. Its all from medical texts.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2023 10:13:15 GMT
My Hanwei tak wakizashi has a long full tang sandwich handle. When I grip it near the guard it's a light stabby 50 cm blade short sword, when I grip it near the end it becomes a 70 cm infantry saber with real cutting power. What do you say now?  (How do I attach a bowl guard?  ) |
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Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 10:39:03 GMT
Still probably close to 100cm in all, where do you live where you can wield such a thing indoors? A castle?
Longest sword I could use for a slash in my home is probably 55cm whole length without snagging it on walls and furniture with every swing, especially in the hallways.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2023 11:24:36 GMT
The ceiling of my apartment can tell you stories...
Not all cuts must be wide swings, short snaps from the wrists work also (and are better for the ceiling).
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Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 11:46:32 GMT
I'd probably be on the recieving end of some vicius verbage, if I hit something in the home. In fact, I was, the wife was not amused, but at least I killed that closet monster for good. Had to fix it under thread of "a good shanking to the kidneys". |
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Post by Murffy on May 19, 2023 14:48:10 GMT
The ceiling of my apartment can tell you stories... Not all cuts must be wide swings, short snaps from the wrists work also (and are better for the ceiling). Boy, am I glad I'm mature enough and disciplined enough not have marred my ceilings, or damaged furniture, or broken a light fixture, or anything like that. |
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Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 14:52:43 GMT
Not all accidents are preventable you know. Something can always happen even if you are careful.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 19, 2023 15:50:11 GMT
Ahhh, the ceiling. I’m glad to report no real problems there, could have been though. I learned how disagreeable the ceiling fan was with a bo and practiced with bokkens and a short wooden dao. The fan still shows the effects. This made me appreciate the value of short blades within the house, no matter how careful you think you are. And for a home invasion...
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