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Post by madirish on Feb 12, 2024 0:25:30 GMT
Well, then, I'll be adding mine! Will do measurements and Weapon Dynamics Computer outputs. I am unable to measure the "thickness inside the fuller" as the I do not have a set of "long reach" calipers. Also, since I don't have a metric tape measure, I will do interavals of 4" for measurements down the blade instead of 100mm/200mm if that's ok
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Post by madirish on Feb 12, 2024 1:20:52 GMT
British 1796 Light Cavalry Trooper's Saber, Craven & Bradbury, approx 1797-1798 based on the trade name on spine.    Length Overall 924mm Blade Length 791mm Curve 60mm Fuller length 711mm Point of Balance 168mm Sword Weight 31.74oz/900g Total Weight 63.31oz1794.8g Guard Length 110mm Height (including langets) 36mm Width (across hand) 127mm Thickness 33mm Grip to Knucklebow(min/max) 45mm/68mm Grip mm Inside Length 89 Width 36 Thickness 22 Width/Thickness Measuring Point Blade Width (mm) Blade Thickness (Spine unless noted) @ Guard 37 9 4" 34 5.5 8" 34 5 12" 33.5 4.5 16" 32.5 4.5 20" 33 4 24" 36 3 28" 40 2 32 24 1.5   |
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Post by beardo on Feb 21, 2024 13:25:28 GMT
Wondering if you'd be able to help with a very cheeky request . . Any chance you could provide the blade width, and thickness measurements at 10, 30, 50, and 70cm?
| Length Over All: | 1,080 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 920 mm |
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| | Curve: |
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| | Point of balance: | 120 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 990 grams |
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| Total Weight:
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 120 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 116 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 40 mm
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| - Thickness
| 1.1 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 42 to 34 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 145 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 120 mm
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| - Width
| 28 to 24 mm
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| - Thickness
| 24 to 22 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 40.0 mm
| 6.7 mm
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| - 200mm
| 29.3 mm
| 4.3 mm
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| - 400mm
| 25.6 mm
| 3.3 mm
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| - 600mm
| 24.9 mm
| 2.9 mm
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| - 800mm
| 22.0 mm
| 2.1 mm
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| - 900mm
| 11.7 mm
| 1.4 mm
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Post by bas on Feb 23, 2024 23:15:56 GMT
Wondering if you'd be able to help with a very cheeky request . . Any chance you could provide the blade width, and thickness measurements at 10, 30, 50, and 70cm? There you go. Note that there was an error in my measurements at the 400mm and 500mm marks. This table is correct (I hope).
| Blade Width | Blade Thickness | | - Ricasso | 40.0 mm | 6.7 mm | | - 100 mm | 32.5 mm | 5.1 mm | | - 200 mm | 29.3 mm | 4.3 mm | | - 300 mm | 27.7 mm | 4.0 mm | | - 400 mm | 26.6 mm | 3.3 mm | | - 500 mm | 25.9 mm | 3.1 mm | | - 600 mm | 24.9 mm | 2.9 mm | | - 700 mm | 24.0 mm | 2.6 mm | | - 800 mm | 22.0 mm | 2.1 mm | | - 900 mm | 11.7 mm | 1.4 mm |
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Post by tweet on Feb 24, 2024 23:34:39 GMT
Great stuff, as always.
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Post by beardo on Mar 3, 2024 8:51:16 GMT
Wondering if you'd be able to help with a very cheeky request . . Any chance you could provide the blade width, and thickness measurements at 10, 30, 50, and 70cm? There you go. Note that there was an error in my measurements at the 400mm and 500mm marks. This table is correct (I hope).
| Blade Width | Blade Thickness | | - Ricasso | 40.0 mm | 6.7 mm | | - 100 mm | 32.5 mm | 5.1 mm | | - 200 mm | 29.3 mm | 4.3 mm | | - 300 mm | 27.7 mm | 4.0 mm | | - 400 mm | 26.6 mm | 3.3 mm | | - 500 mm | 25.9 mm | 3.1 mm | | - 600 mm | 24.9 mm | 2.9 mm | | - 700 mm | 24.0 mm | 2.6 mm | | - 800 mm | 22.0 mm | 2.1 mm | | - 900 mm | 11.7 mm | 1.4 mm |
Much appreciated! |
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Post by bas on May 6, 2024 1:14:35 GMT
Napoleonic era French light cavalry officers' sabre with the à la Marengo style hilt This style of sabre hilt, with the rounded langets and semi-S shaped guard. Is one of two types that are associated with the la Marengo type. The other has a similar cross guard but a pommel cap that bends towards the knuckle bow, decorated with a lions' face. These styles are said to have gained popularity following Consular Napoleon's victory over the Austrians in Jun 1800 at the Battle of Marengo. French sword cutlers purportedly drew their inspiration from the sabre carried by Napoleon during the campaign.
It has been claimed that only officers who had participated in the battle were permitted to carry this style of hilt, however this is unlikely to have been true, given the number of surviving examples. While relatively large, this is a light and nimble sword that glides through the air. The blade is a Solingen made 'export' blade with generic engraving that would originally have been highlighted in gold on a background of blue.
| Length Over All: | 935 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 795 mm |
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| | Curve: | 54 mm
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| | Point of balance: | 140 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 700 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1,2300 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 120 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 22 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 32 mm
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| - Thickness
| 7.6 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 36 to 44 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 125 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 105 mm
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| - Width
| 18 to 37 mm
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| - Thickness
| 17 to 22 mm
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| Blade
| Width
| Blade Thickness
| Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 33.0 mm
| 8.1 mm
| 3.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 29.8 mm
| 5.3 mm
| 1.5 mm
| - 400mm
| 28.0 mm
| 4.7 mm
| 1.5 mm
| - 600mm
| 28.1 mm
| 2.7 mm
| 1.2 mm
| - 750mm
| 22.2 mm
| 1.8 mm
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Post by takitam on May 6, 2024 19:19:32 GMT
Thank you and big thumbs up! This has got to be one of, if not the most valuable threads on the forum.
Amazing reservoir of knowledge about historical weapons.
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Post by bas on Jun 24, 2024 23:14:43 GMT
French Grenadier Officers' Sabre - Petite Montmorency style.Circa 1788 - 1800.
The social upheaval in France during the late 18th century was pervasive through all levels of society. People were abandoning the old and adopting a number of new styles and fashions to display their allegiance to which ever faction the belonged to; the (soon to be executed) king, the revolution, or some variation of the politics at the time.
One of these changes in fashion began around 1784 with infantry officers giving up their model 1767 smallsword in favour of non-regulation sabres, often based on the styles copied from the cavalry. The rotating guard hilts were one such example.
With the Royal decree of April 1788 permitting the use of sabres by the infantry we see another type appear, swords with slotted hilts and sidebars that often feature military emblems such as the light infantry hunters horn or the grenadiers flaming bomb. While others (normally associated with the National Guard) display elaborate political symbolism like Roosters or lions with the Phrygian cap; icons of bravery, the French State and the revolution.  Because these sabres were non-regulation, they don't follow a set pattern; and can be plain or very ornate. Seeking to classify them, collectors of the late 19th Century noted that many swords in this style had blades that matched the profile of the Montmorency Dragoons; a curved blade with a central fuller and a secondary fuller running close to the spine.
Since they were carried by infantry or National Guard officers, on the whole this style of sabre are shorter than the dragoon type, thus earning them the petite montmorency moniker.
As with many such arbitrary names, its meaning has expanded in use to cover a wider group of swords that are broadly similar but don't follow exactly the same features. This sword is such an example. The slotted hilt and guard are very typical with the helmet pommel, sidebars and flaming bomb. However because the blade is has no fuller, it can't be said to have a true montmorency blade. Still, it is the best grouping we have for this sword.
This sword is a handy weapon, just shy of 80cm long with a 66cm blade. The lack of a fuller means is weighs 750 grams, giving it a lot of presence in the hand. The blade engraved with the word Grenadier on one side and flaming bomb with a trophy and bomb on the other; otherwise it is very plain.  On the spine there is an arrow wrapped in a scroll, which I assume to be related to the maker. I'm sure I've seen this mark before but now I can't find the source. If you know what it means, please let me know.  | Length Over All: | 795 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 655 mm |
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| | Curve: | 15 mm
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| | Point of balance: | 140 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 750 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 920 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 102 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 60 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
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| - Thickness
| 3.2 to 4.5 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 36 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 142 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 105 mm
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| - Width
| 30 to 31.3 mm
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| - Thickness
| 23 to 24.3 mm
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| Blade
| Width
| Blade Thickness
| Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 32.6 mm
| 7.9 mm
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| - 200mm
| 31.3 mm
| 3.5 mm
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| - 400mm
| 32.3 mm
| 3.5 mm
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| - 600mm
| 23.9 mm
| 2.2 mm
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Post by pellius on Jun 25, 2024 0:00:04 GMT
Another huge thanks for this thread.
It is very much appreciated.
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Post by bas on Jul 14, 2024 5:25:47 GMT
17th Century Swept Hilt Rapier
I've had this sword for a couple of months, but I've been slow to post it while learning more about it. When I started out collecting, there were always a couple of dream swords that I'd love to own. On the top of that list were the schiavona and the swept-hilted rapier. For the most part, rapiers have been out of reach for me. Decent swept hilts command significant money while determining their authenticity is a further challenge that adds unwanted risk. Fortunately, I found a sword within my fiscal comfort zone and quirky enough to attract my attention. The genesis of rapiers first appeared in 15th Century Spain as a distinctly civilian sword. The progressively improved hand protection resulted in swords equally good in the defence as the offence. This allowed the users to forgo armour and earned these weapons the name espada roperas, 'swords of the robe'. As their use spread, the name mutated. They became known as la rapiere in France and rapier in England. As so often happens, the term rapier came to encompass a wide selection of swords with various blade profiles. Broadly speaking, rapier describes a large civilian sword for dismounted combat with a complex hilt that offers significant hand protection and a thrust-centric blade. The latter is essential because complex hilts weren't limited to just rapiers; they were mounted on other blades more suited to cutting than thrust-based fencing. As Ewart Oakshott writes, "If you can cut off a man's arm with it, then it's a sword, if not a rapier." However, as the use of armour declined in the 17th Century, its use peaked, with rapiers making their way onto the battlefield during the latter stages of the Eighty Years' War, where the Dutch fought for independence from Spain; the Thirty Years' War in Germany, and the English Civil War. By the end of the 17th Century, a new, smaller rapier with its' own form of fencing began to appear in France. It was significantly shorter and lighter than what came before, with an even more specialised thrusting blade. This sword became known as the smallsword and persisted until the end of the 18th Century as the gentleman's sidearm to defend self and honour.
This recent addition to my collection is not an extravagant sword; in fact, it can be better described as 'munitions grade'. The hilt and blade are very functional, robust, and devoid of the decorations and markings usually seen on higher-grade rapiers. It is the type of sword that a musketeer might have worn in the service of one of the many pike and shot armies that fought in the wars that plagued Europe in this era.
Using the A. V. Normans' typology, my rapier has a Type 58 swept hilt and a Type 30 inner guard. According to A. V. Norman, this hilt type appeared around 1560 and remained until about 1635, although my sword likely dates to between 1600 and 1630. This rapier is a shockingly large weapon. On paper, one and a quarter metres is just a number without real context. But when you stand it against your side and realise it nearly comes up to your chest, it takes on a whole new meaning. The sword is also heavy, a fraction heavier than my French AN XI Curassier swords, which up until now had been my heaviest swords by a good margin. The sword is in excellent condition, without significant corrosion or other signs of neglect. Only the grip wire is a recent replacement but nicely done in the style of the time, with a Turk's head knot at both ends. | Length Over All: | 1,245 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 1,070 mm |
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| | Curve: |
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| | Point of balance: | 75 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 1,340 grams |
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| Total Weight:
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 252 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 140 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 60 mm
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| - Thickness
| 7 to 10 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 39 to 57 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 153 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 100 mm
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| - Width
| 19 to 28 mm
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| - Thickness
| 17 to 21 mm
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| Blade Dimensions
| Profile Taper
| Distal Taper
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 19.3 mm
| 8.9 mm
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| - 200mm
| 16.5 mm
| 5.9 mm
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| - 400mm
| 14.9 mm
| 5.7 mm
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| - 600mm
| 13.5 mm
| 4.9 mm
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| - 800mm
| 11.9 mm
| 3.8 mm
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| - 1000mm
| 10.2 mm
| 3.3 mm
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Post by bas on Jul 22, 2024 4:14:10 GMT
17th Century Shell Guard Broadsword
There's something unique about holding a piece of history that dates back four hundred years. They have a presence, a gravitas that, more recent swords lack. So, what is this sword? The Royal Armouries simply describes the examples in their collection as an early 17th-century broadsword with shell guard (Object IX.172). While Ewart Oakeshott in his book "European Weapons and Armour - From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution" describes two types of swords with related characteristics: the German sabre, circa 1540s, with forward and rear quillons, a knuckle bow, and a distinctive shell guard covering the outside of the hand. Plus, the second type of Sinclair hilt, with its one-piece S-shaped crossguard forming the rear quillon and knuckle guard.
At the same time, the Dutch sword historian J.P. Puype describes these as a Solingen horseman's sword of the classical type:
"The problem with this type of sword is that so far there has never been written a proper monography on them and that opinions on them are practically always unsubstantiated by evidence. The other problem is that they are often seen as naval but there is more evidence to tell us that they were army swords.
I think that I may be the first arms historian who identified these swords as cavalry swords, but I have to admit that in publications prior to 1998 I (too) identified them exclusively as shipboard cutlasses.
In the 1990s I became increasingly involved in writing publications and doing museum exhibitions on Prince Maurice and the new Dutch so-called States Army of the 1590s. In the course of this involvement I analysed the pictures by Jacob de Gheyn made during the 1590s of the infantry drill and cavalry drills. These infantry pictures were published in a book in 1607, although we know that its manuscript was already in existence c. 1595-c.1597, but was withheld by Prince Maurice for reasons of security.
Simultaneously, a book on the cavalry exercise was conceived, but its publication was permanently withheld by Maurice, partly for security reasons, partly also because Prince Maurice in 1597 or 1598 abolished the lancers.
Among the cavalry prints the heavy cavalry has as its chief weapon the lance (it was abolished in 1597 or 1598 in favor of the wheel-lock pistol, and the lancers became 'pistoliers'). However, the light cavalry is armed with swords with shell-guard hilts.
So we can only prove that the seashell-hilted sword apparently originated in the cavalry. The earliest proof that I have of its maritime use is after 1700. I do not know how to explain the picture of the French privateer Lolonois of 1684 (the year of appearance of the original Dutch edition) who is armed with a seashell-hilted cutlass with a curved blade with clipped point.
One other of the very few other 17th C pictures I know in which appear what seem to be shell-hilted cutlasses is on the title-page of a book published in 1673 (see the attachment). There is a heap of apparently seashell-hilted cutlasses in the foreground but it is clear that the hilts are rendered in a wrong version. The blades, however, are curved and with clipped point.
In or before 1978 the wreck of a flatboat was found in the lake what once was the Zuyderzee. This boat was full of arms and military equipment, destined for what were army outposts on islands against a possible French invasion in 1672. Among the cargo were four swords with seashell guards and straight blades. In the attachment are two archaeological drawings.
All this does not bring us definitive answers to the problem when we view the portrait of the French privateer l'Olonnais (spelled as Lolonois) in which he is holding a seashell-hilted cutlass with curved blade with clipped point. I do not know of the actual existence of such a sword - nowhere in the world. I dare not go so far as to suggest that swords of this type may be artists' impressions only but somehow it does feel that way!"
Jan Piet Puype.
In short, these are another variation of military broadsword that would have been common amongst the military armies of the first half of the 17th-century. While it is appealing to look at the portrait of the French privateer Lolonois as evidence that these swords have a naval connection, the unfortunate reality is that the artist likely never met his subject. Furthermore, he made a notable error in the sword's detailing; with the quillon and knucklebow reversed, the sword becomes impractical to wield. In conclusion, we see an artist's impression, not a historical representation.
In German and Dutch references, these swords are called houdegen or houwdegen, which translates to 'hewing sword'. Although short, their weight and broad, double-edged lenticular blades give these swords a no-nonsense functionality. A single fuller runs for the first 20% starting at the guard. The ricasso is a square block with two smaller side fullers running along its length. On both sides of the ricasso is a maker mark of a crown above an O and T. According to the Royal Armouries, this is the mark of a Spanish smith. However, I have seen one text attribute this to a Solingen swordsmith. Given that the blade has ME FECIT and SOLINGEN (Solingen Made Me) stamped into the fuller, it seems more likely that the stamp is either a copy of the Spanish maker mark or one unique to a Solingen blade maker.
The grip retains its' original wire and Turks head knots at each end. It has a pear-shaped pommel with a tang button on the top for the peen. Although I can't be sure, I expect the pommel is hollow, like we see on the Amsterdam Walloon swords.
The S-shaped crossguard and shell guard are two separate pieces that appear to have been forge-welded together. While the hilt and pommel on my sword are solid, the guard is loose. There probably used to be a fabric or leather washer between the blade shoulder and guard to hold them tight. On the inside of the guard, it continues to cover the thumb, curling around on itself to form a thumb ring. This combination of knuckle bow and shell guard offers the wielder a lot of hand protection.
| Length Over All: | 870 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 725 mm |
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| | Curve: |
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| | Point of balance: | 90 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 900 grams |
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| Total Weight:
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 115 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 115 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 55 mm
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| - Thickness
| 1.5 to 4.0 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
|
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| Grip
|
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| - Outside Length
| 140 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 80 mm
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| - Width
| 19 to 22 mm
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| - Thickness
| 22 to 27 mm
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| Blade Dimensions
| Profile Taper
| Distal Taper
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 33.8 mm
| 5.2 mm
| 3.8 mm
| - 200mm
| 32.0 mm
| 3.8 mm
| 2.6 mm
| - 400mm
| 32.3 mm
| 2.9 mm
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| - 600mm
| 32.6 mm
| 2.1 mm
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| - 700mm
| 22.5 mm
| 1.5 mm
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Post by pellius on Jul 23, 2024 1:49:47 GMT
Wow
Very impressive pieces
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Post by bas on Jul 23, 2024 3:34:33 GMT
Wow Very impressive pieces Thank you, they're certainly interesting to handle and research (as well as I can anyway). |
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