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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 23:18:21 GMT
British 1796 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Troopers’ SwordThe infamous and much maligned 1796 pattern Heavy Cavalry troopers’ sword. Introduced in 1796 as part of John Gaspard Le Marchant’s inspired reform of the British cavalry, the 1796 Heavy cavalry sword, like the French An XIII is an iconic sword of the Napoleonic wars. Being a strong proponent of ‘cut over thrust’ Le Marchant had intended that both the light and heavy cavalry would be armed with his curved sabre (see the 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre). He reasoned that thrust centric attacks could only target the face and torso to be effective, while cuts could be applied all over. Even though thrusts were generally more deadly, a soldier with a broken or badly lacerated arm was just a likely to be taken out of battle. He also observed the soldiers natural tendency to favour cutting attacks once melee was joined. However, the Ordnance Board insisted on a straight, backsword blade and it was decided to copy the Austrian m1775 pallasch. The 1788 and 1796 pattern trooper swords mark another important departure for cavalry equipment that is often overlooked. The 1788 pattern is the first where, control of the procurement of equipment was handed over to the Ordnance Board for purchase and distribution of troopers’ equipment. Prior to that, the regimental colonels were given funds to buy the troopers swords themselves. Resulting in a large variance in patterns and quality of weapons. In the late 18th Century, there was a strong push by British manufacturers lead by Theo Gill, extolling the virtue of British made swords. Gill and Osborn introduced their own quality control testing standards that were picked up by the Ordnance Board who began to conduct their own approval tests and stamping the blades with an acceptance mark (a Crown over a number for each different inspector). During its life, the sword also saw service with the Portuguese and Swedish cavalry who were sold large numbers of weapons by the British, so that they could continue opposing Napoleon on the European continent. Finally replaced in the late 1820s as the 1821 pattern began to arrive with the troops, the 1796 underwent a number of cosmetic changes. The hatchet point was altered into a spear point to make it a better thrusting weapon. The langets were removed as unnecessary and the inside of the guard was cut down to make it easier to carry. My sword was manufactured by Samuel Dawes, is ordnance marked with the Crown over 4 stamp plus a unit marking ‘I over 46′ (Troop I, sword 46) on the guard. It retains its’ original guard, double langets and hatchet point which were often modified in the field or by regimental order. The grip leather is a later replacement.
Additional Links:
| Length Over All: | 1020 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 890 mm |
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| | Curve: | 5 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 180 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 1020 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 2650 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 145 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 116 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 48.5 mm
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| - Thickness
| 4.6 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 52.2 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 120 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 108 mm
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| - Width
| 38.0 to 28.4 mm
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| - Thickness
| 27.0 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 37.8 mm
| 9.4 mm
| 4.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 34.0 mm
| 5.2 mm
| 1.9 mm
| - 400mm
| 33.4 mm
| 5.0 mm
| 1.7 mm
| - 600mm
| 33.7 mm
| 3.4 mm
| 1.3 mm
| - 800mm
| 34.5 mm
| 1.7 mm
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| - 850mm
| 31.6 mm
| 1.6 mm
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 2:15:15 GMT
This is the image I was refering to:
In my original post, it's the first under Additional links.
Interesting. I would assume it to be a dragoon, also fighting on foot. The sword particularly leans that way. In exchanging gifts with a good friend I let go of a plank carving also showing a sword with no knuckle bow. So a homage to dragoons I would think.  Cheers GC |
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Post by bas on Aug 4, 2021 2:31:14 GMT
Thanks GC,
I'm leaning to Light Dragoons as well. There looks to be a lot of Dragoons related iconagraphy on this blade, even the helmet in the trophy of arms looks like a Dragoon helmet.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 4:18:05 GMT
The panoply on swords comes to embrace all arms in preparing for war. www.livius.org/articles/objects/panoply/A stand of arms (hence the shield), as more accurate than the spoils of war. We confuse things even further with the French helmet head swords and whether Roman or medieval and variants of both. Early US Ames militia, not a medieval knight.  Britannia, as in the etch on the earlier shown spadroon, drawn from Pallas Athena with her shield. The iconography can be mixed but I do believe we can find traits of certain etching shops in Birmingham. I can believe there is intent for dragoons in that stand but I can't overlook the practice of adding a panoply as anything but generic. Another generic with intent being a spear with a liberty cap for French and U.S. swords, or quivers of arrows and a bow for the U.S. Seminole Wars. While these figuratives may well be directed for the intended market, the use is not always the case. Definitely possible as pieces of a puzzle. Cheers GC |
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Uhlan
Member
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 4, 2021 10:16:22 GMT
One of the best examples of a P1796 HC I have seen in a very long time.
Absolutely stunning.
Cheers.
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Post by bas on Aug 5, 2021 6:06:48 GMT
One of the best examples of a P1796 HC I have seen in a very long time. Absolutely stunning. Cheers. Thank you, I've always found the design rather industrial but it actually balances surprisingly well in the hand. I'm happy to have aquired it. |
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Post by bas on Aug 5, 2021 6:14:13 GMT
French Dragoons or Gendarmerie Officers’ sword with ‘Garde de Bataille’ style hiltInspired by German sword designs from the mid-18th Century, the ‘Garde de Bataille’ (Battle Guard) sword with its’ distinctive scallop shell guard persisted in multiple versions until the late 19th Century. Adopted in 1784 for Cavalry and Dragoon officers the guard features a detailed shell guard and four branches that encloses the guard side of the grip. while the counter guard is protected by a half shell and single bar. The guard was made of gilded brass and could feature an emblem for the officers’ branch of service, such as the flaming bomb for the grenadiers. Or just be highly decorated according to the officers’ taste and the depth of his wallet. Because these swords were all private purchase, there is a large variation in their specifications. From blade length to weight, a round or an octagonal pommel. Examples can be found with flat blades, single or double fullers. Some are un-marked while others feature detailed ornamentation. Features such as the grenadier’s flaming bomb, the style of scabbard and blade inscriptions are the best clues to determine the age of the sword and what branch the original owner served with. On my sword, the scabbard is typical of the First Empire period and the locking stud for use with a baldric, points to it being used with the Dragoons or Gendarmerie.
| Length Over All: | 1050 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 900 mm |
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| | Curve: | 0 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 120 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 860 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1150 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 115 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 120 mm
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| - Thickness
| 6.3 and 2.5 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 43.7 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 148 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 110 mm
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| - Width
| 35.1 to 28.5 mm
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| - Thickness
| 23.0 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 29.6 mm
| 9.8 mm
| 6.7 / 4.9 mm
| - 200mm
| 25.5 mm
| 6.0 mm
| 1.4 / 1.4 mm
| - 400mm
| 22.5 mm
| 5.1 mm
| 0.8 / 1.7 mm
| - 600mm
| 18.5 mm
| 4.3 mm
| 0.5 / 1.7 mm
| - 800mm
| 16.1 mm
| 3.0 mm
| 1.2 /1.3 mm
| - 880mm
| 7.8 mm
| 2.3 mm
| 1.7 mm
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Post by markus313 on Aug 5, 2021 8:36:20 GMT
Wow, Bas. Thank you for this detailed information. Much appreciated.
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Post by bas on Aug 7, 2021 10:08:48 GMT
Sabre d’officer de Cavalerie legere - Modele de l’an XIFrench swords of the 18th and early 19th centuries are commonly grouped by the political era that formed them. The Royal era ended in 1789 with the brutal French Revolution giving rise to the First Republic in 1792. Split into the Directory and Consulate periods, the First Republic lasted until 18 May 1804 with the crowning of Napoleon as Emperor giving birth to the First Empire which lasted to 11 April 1814 and again with Napoleon’s return from exile March 1815 till his final defeat at Waterloo in 1815. With Napoleon back in exile, the victorious allied nations restored the French monarchy, a period referred to as the Restoration Period which lasted until 1852. To complicate things further, in 1792, full of revolutionary fervour the French Government decided to do away with the past and start afresh. This included the calendar. It was decided that they would go back to year one on 22 September 1792. So, the model year 11 is the same as the m.1802 As the name suggests, the An XI was introduced as a replacement sabre for the Light Cavalry in 1802, although an earlier model the An IX did see limited production before the design was finalised. Called the Chasseurs a cheval or hunters on horse, this hilt style is often referred to as the ‘hunter guard’ although the design saw service with all multiple mounted branches, including the mounted artillery. The An XI, like many swords of the First Empire era, continued to be used into the Restoration period. Because the trooper swords went through the government ordnance channels, they are marked with inspectors’ stamps and often the date of manufacture, making it relatively straightforward to date them. Officer swords, however, are more difficult to date. Being a private purchase a lot of choice was available to the buyer in the specific features of the sword he wanted. Some were more focused on its’ suitability for combat, while others focused on the fashion aspect. During the First Empire period, the German sword manufacturing centre of Solingen was under French control. Because of this, a lot of the An XI officer’s swords (and others) can from that region. This sword is one such example, produced in Solingen and retailed by the Schnitzler & Kirschbaum company, as seen by the S & K mark on the ricasso. S&K were operating from 1792 - 1864 and this sword probably dates from 1805 to 1810 based on the shape of the guard and pommel. 
| Length Over All: | 985 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 850 mm |
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| | Curve: | 51.4 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 130 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 830 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1480 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 135 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 80 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 62 mm
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| - Thickness
| 10 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 47.2 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 130 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 105 mm
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| - Width
| 43.6 to 30.6 mm
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| - Thickness
| 25.8 to 23.3 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 30.0 mm
| 10.7 mm
| 5.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 28.1 mm
| 6.4 mm
| 1.0 mm
| - 400mm
| 26.8 mm
| 5.4 mm
| 1.2 mm
| - 600mm
| 25.3 mm
| 4.7 mm
| 0.9 mm
| - 700mm
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| 0.8 mm
| - 800mm
| 16.9 mm
| 2.2 mm
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2021 14:07:53 GMT
Do you have a picture of the base of the spine? S&K would push forward the date a bit. Both S&K were retailers, with Shcnitzler opening up as an agent in London after the first empire war years. I'd have to check for the timeline of that. The spine marks becoming distinctive makers/forges we have not quite yet charted. Yours may be a full blossom, reflected on the blade flat.
Cheers
GC
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Post by pellius on Aug 7, 2021 16:57:00 GMT
Outstanding info on gorgeous swords.
I keep checking back to this thread, and it keeps getting awesomer.
Thank you for sharing.
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Post by bas on Aug 7, 2021 20:51:19 GMT
Do you have a picture of the base of the spine? S&K would push forward the date a bit. Both S&K were retailers, with Shcnitzler opening up as an agent in London after the first empire war years. I'd have to check for the timeline of that. The spine marks becoming distinctive makers/forges we have not quite yet charted. Yours may be a full blossom, reflected on the blade flat. Cheers GC
Thanks for the correction on GC, I did have it in my notes that they were a retailing company but overlooked it when checking the dates. This is what I have on the dates for S&K:
City of Solingen Archive:
Contains: Bd. 1, 1803-1805 notebook of the company Johann and Peter Pieper & Co., Gräfrath, of the company Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, SolingenBd. 2, 1805-1807 Brief from Abraham Schnitzler, traveler of the Schnitzler & Kirschbaum company.
Also, from a Biography of the Schnitzler family (German)
The family had lived in Gräfrath, near Solingen, since the beginning of the 17th century. Family members have served in the civil service, some as mayors. They sold forged products from Solingen as merchants. As unprivileged merchants, they were prohibited from selling swords and blades. To get around this problem, → Philipp Jacob (1759-1811) founded in 1797 → with his uncle → Wilhelm Bernhard Samuel Kirschbaum (died 1803) of the company "Schnitzler & Kirschbaum". After the death of Philipp Jacob, his eldest son → Carl Eduard (1792-1864) took over the management.
The link in my post at the bottom of the images has additional photos including this one:
I would welcome your opinion on what appears to be a Solingen mark.
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Post by bas on Aug 7, 2021 20:55:28 GMT
Outstanding info on gorgeous swords. I keep checking back to this thread, and it keeps getting awesomer. Thank you for sharing. Thank you Pellius,
Keep looking, I have a five ball spadroon on the way plus a British 1803 pattern Light Company officers' sabre, a French 1767 epee and an ERVII 1828 basket hilt in the works.
Alas those are likely to be the last.
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Post by Pino on Aug 8, 2021 17:16:42 GMT
I wish I had these swords, It's not fair!!  Edit: wiser men than me once asked on FBook: PRICE? |
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Post by bas on Aug 8, 2021 21:55:29 GMT
I wish I had these swords, It's not fair!! Edit: wiser men than me once asked on FBook: PRICE? You have an excellent collection as well. I wish I had to space to house even half of what you hold.
in the immortal words of facebook, PP?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2021 22:26:51 GMT
Do you have a picture of the base of the spine? S&K would push forward the date a bit. Both S&K were retailers, with Shcnitzler opening up as an agent in London after the first empire war years. I'd have to check for the timeline of that. The spine marks becoming distinctive makers/forges we have not quite yet charted. Yours may be a full blossom, reflected on the blade flat. Cheers GC
Thanks for the correction on GC, I did have it in my notes that they were a retailing company but overlooked it when checking the dates. This is what I have on the dates for S&K:
City of Solingen Archive:
Contains: Bd. 1, 1803-1805 notebook of the company Johann and Peter Pieper & Co., Gräfrath, of the company Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, SolingenBd. 2, 1805-1807 Brief from Abraham Schnitzler, traveler of the Schnitzler & Kirschbaum company.
Also, from a Biography of the Schnitzler family (German)
The family had lived in Gräfrath, near Solingen, since the beginning of the 17th century. Family members have served in the civil service, some as mayors. They sold forged products from Solingen as merchants. As unprivileged merchants, they were prohibited from selling swords and blades. To get around this problem, → Philipp Jacob (1759-1811) founded in 1797 → with his uncle → Wilhelm Bernhard Samuel Kirschbaum (died 1803) of the company "Schnitzler & Kirschbaum". After the death of Philipp Jacob, his eldest son → Carl Eduard (1792-1864) took over the management.
The link in my post at the bottom of the images has additional photos including this one:
I would welcome your opinion on what appears to be a Solingen mark.
Thanks for the additional information. I am procrastinating in looking at some books. However, I would interject here with a b&g decorated for A.W. Spies, an American importer from the 1820s and beyond. Your b&g does fit an earlier timeline, with the terminus straight across on the blade. Spies apprenticed in England and the swords imported typically British. This example I am attaching may well be a composite. However, Spies started his business with left over surplus imports. This blade may have had the Solingen foliate scrubbed from the spine of the blade. The etch, otherwise, not really a Solingen looking etch aside from the terminus straight across the blade. Hmmm....     I do not own this sword but more images are archived. My ongoing studies show swords being used up as surplus and composites with older parts and sometimes redone. I am not speculating your sword was ever anything but a complete unit but as soon as I see an S&K marked sword, it sets mental gears in motion as to the retail aspects. Then also consider similarly marked swords for K&S, Kirschbaum&Schimmelbusch, Now, some will say 1804 would end any date for Schimmelbusch but we have F. Schimmelbush after Johann (1741-1804). My point being we can't always date a mark to a year of production. 'Goldschmidt, & Kraft, which used imported blades made by Schimmelbusch & Joest, Solingen, Prussia.' www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/1170/kraft-goldschmidt-kraft-confederate-cavalry-saber-scabbardI always say my next buy will be my last and time has come for me to just appreciate without owning the world. Few of my swords are near the class of your collection and you have presented them in fine fashion. If I ever get my stuff out of storage, I'll be trying to share more. Cheers GC |
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Post by bas on Sept 29, 2021 22:05:44 GMT
Well the last couple of weeks have been a bit stressful and highlight the challenges when dealing with materials falling under the CITES umbrella. Fortunately, the law in NZ and the people enforcing the laws have the ability to exercise discretion when making a final judgement.
To make a long story short, the sword was exported from the UK with a CITES permit. Because it is preconvention antique ivory no import permit is needed on the NZ side. However the item needs to be sighted and the CITES permit signed by the authorities in the UK. This was not done, invalidating the permit. Frustratingly the exporter and I followed exactly the same procedure when I imported the ivory hilted Mameluke sabre, and it too was inspected at the NZ end but they let it through that time, causing me to believe that we were following the correct protocol.
So I had to wait two weeks for our authorities to make a decision to seize and destroy the ivory or to issue me with a warning and let it through. Luckilly they went easy on me and I now have a lovely British army officers five ball spadroon of understated elegance in my collection:
 In the late eighteenth century, the infantry officer’s badge of rank was still the spontoon, a partisan style polearm useful for signalling and rallying his soldiers around him in the smoke and chaos of the European Battlefield. With the changing tactics of the modern gunpowder era, especially in the untamed wilderness of the American Frontier, British officers soon found their spontoons to be a hindrance when fighting the revolutionary irregulars and quickly ditched them.
This was officially recognised in 1786 by Royal order when officers were instructed to arm themselves with a straight-bladed sword, the blade being no less than one inch in width and 32 inches in length. This most likely reflects the type of sword that officers were already carrying at the time as the earliest British regulation patterns appear to follow the trends of what was happening in the army.
This style of hilt is called a five ball hilt due to the buttons incorporated into the handguard and I believe that the sword dates to the early 1780s because of the older style urn pommel. Three and seven ball guards also exist, and the design was emulated in France and America as well. The S-bar on the side is less commonly encountered.
The quality of the detailing on the urn pommel, the faceted ring for the sword knot and the ivory hilt all indicate that it would have been an expensive sword when first purchased, given that these swords were all finished by hand. Unfortunately, the blade is unmarked apart from the long central fuller. Any thoughts on what type of officer owned this blade (aside from that it was most likely a British Officer) and when it was produced are just than an educated guess. Obligitory stats:
| Length Over All: | 980 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 800 mm |
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| | Curve: |
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| | Point of balance: | 130 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 700 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 930 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 110 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 60.9 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 30.7 mm
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| - Thickness
| 4.6 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 40 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 170 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 125 mm
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| - Width
| 26.8 mm
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| - Thickness
| 23.1 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 30.5 mm
| 6.5 mm
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| - 200mm
| 25.2 mm
| 3.9 mm
| 2.8 mm
| - 400mm
| 22.5 mm
| 3.8 mm
| 2.5 mm
| - 600mm
| 20.0 mm
| 3.1 mm
| 1.8 mm
| - 780mm
| 13.8 mm
| 3.0 mm
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Additional photos for GC:
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,714
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Post by stormmaster on Sept 29, 2021 22:59:29 GMT
That one is very interesting glad they let it go through and congrats
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 0:57:39 GMT
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Post by bas on Sept 30, 2021 4:33:04 GMT
Thanks for the feedback GC, I did come across the post from Dana_w and the sword she showed was very similar in the level of detailing.
Looking at the split ring for the sword knot, I can't help but picture an apprentice polishing each individual surface thinking to himself 'F__k, I hate this job!'
If there are any other angles you'd like to see do let me know.
Cheers
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