|
|
Post by sabre on Oct 11, 2021 6:53:49 GMT
Finally a 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry officers sabre of the Yeomanry made by Gill in around 1817: | Length Over All: | 945 mm | | Blade Length: | 825 mm | | Curve: | 56 mm | | Point of balance: | 185 mm | | Sword Weight: | 750 grams | Total Weight:
| 1520 grams
| Blade Width:
|
| - Ricasso
| 40.7 mm
| - 200mm
| 35.0 mm
| - 400mm
| 34.6 mm
| - 600mm
| 39.3 mm
| - 750mm
| 36.8 mm
| | Blade Thickness: |
| - Ricasso
| 7.4 mm
| | - 200mm | 5.3 mm | - 400mm
| 4.8 mm
| - 600mm
| 2.6 mm
| - 750mm
| 1.5 mm
|
|
|
|
|
Post by sabre on Oct 11, 2021 7:06:00 GMT
I notice this sabre is marked to the Oldham Troop Yeomanry Cavalry.
I also have a blue and gilt sabre marked to this Regiment
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 11, 2021 7:46:30 GMT
I notice this sabre is marked to the Oldham Troop Yeomanry Cavalry. I also have a blue and gilt sabre marked to this Regiment Very nice, which officer was yours named to? I corresponded with Iain Wilkinson, author of 'History of Oldham Volunteer Corps 1798-1908' and he has identified five named sabres for the OTYC:
- Lieutenant Richard Clegg
- Quarter Master James Clegg
- Sgt James Milne
- Captain John Taylor
- Cornet James Mayer Taylor (my sword)
|
|
|
|
Post by sabre on Oct 11, 2021 8:07:09 GMT
Mine is named to James Milne sergeant.
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 11, 2021 8:26:14 GMT
Very nice, congratulations.
I'm guessing it is a Gill as well?
|
|
|
|
Post by sabre on Oct 11, 2021 9:23:45 GMT
Does not have a maker marking i'm afraid.
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 11, 2021 9:37:47 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by sabre on Oct 11, 2021 10:01:02 GMT
Yes Bas got his book also.
|
|
stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,714
|
Post by stormmaster on Oct 11, 2021 14:59:12 GMT
Finally a 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry officers sabre of the Yeomanry made by Gill in around 1817: | Length Over All: | 945 mm | | Blade Length: | 825 mm | | Curve: | 56 mm | | Point of balance: | 185 mm | | Sword Weight: | 750 grams | Total Weight:
| 1520 grams
| Blade Width:
|
| - Ricasso
| 40.7 mm
| - 200mm
| 35.0 mm
| - 400mm
| 34.6 mm
| - 600mm
| 39.3 mm
| - 750mm
| 36.8 mm
| | Blade Thickness: |
| - Ricasso
| 7.4 mm
| | - 200mm | 5.3 mm | - 400mm
| 4.8 mm
| - 600mm
| 2.6 mm
| - 750mm
| 1.5 mm
|
this one is very pretty, out of curiosity how do u maintain the blued and gilded blade? just a bit of oil doesnt start rubbing it off i assume? |
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 11, 2021 18:38:35 GMT
Hi Stormmaster,
To be honest I try to keep it in it’s scabbard and do as little as possible because the oil can damage the bluing as can wiping a cloth over it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 23:31:48 GMT
Yes, clean and dry. Windex on a soft cloth. Some like ren wax on top but it is even more one way. I have not tried acetone to strip wax, silicon or ren wax but I avoid anything on my one almost intact b&g anyway. Anything petroleum distillate tends to wipe the blue off, leaving just remains of the gold.
Cheers
GC
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 23, 2021 2:49:14 GMT
Here is a fun sword that has recently come into my hands; a Georgian era 1796 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Officers Sword for dismounted service.
What makes this sword different, is that instead of having the regulation cut and thrust spadroon blade, this sword as a broad double fullered backsword blade more commonly found on basket hilted swords. Furthermore, it is clearly marked ‘Andrea Farara’ in the main fuller.
Andrea Ferara and his brother were sword makers of the 16th Century that contracted with a pair of English merchants to sell swords into England and Scotland. Over time the name came to be associated with blades of high quality amongst the swordsmen of the Highlands. So much so that by the 17th and 18th Centuries ownership of such a blade became a matter of pride amongst many and the name became a title in of itself.
Because the name can be found on blades of a type that date to after the 16th Century and can be found accompanying marks from other makers, such as ones from Solingen, it is safe to conclude that it took on its own meaning specific to the people of the Scottish Highlands. This is one of the reasons behind the variations in the placement and spelling of the name we see now.
What this all means for this sword, is that it likely belonged to a Scottish Cavalry officer who took a family sword, probably a mid-18th Century basket hilted backsword that was then re-mounted on a 1796 Pattern boat-shell hilt to match the uniform regulation requirements of his unit.
Heavy cavalry officers of the time usually owned at least two swords, the 1796 Pattern undress, with the ladder hilt that as used for mounted service and the 1796 Pattern for dismounted service carried at such times that the officer had to perform his duties while on foot. The iron scabbard is widely believed to signify that the sword was carried in the field as it is more robust than the leather one. While the lighter, fancier leather scabbard is more suited to dress occasions.
| Length Over All: | 975 mm
|
|
| | Blade Length: | 823 mm |
|
| | Curve: | n/a
|
|
| | Point of balance: | 125 mm |
|
| | Sword Weight: | 870 grams |
|
| Total Weight:
| 1250 grams
|
|
| Guard
|
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 125 mm
|
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 87 mm
|
|
| - Height (Including langets)
| 21.9 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 2.0 - 4.0 mm
|
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 39.7 mm
|
|
| Grip
|
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 135 mm
|
|
| - Inside Length
| 100 mm
|
|
| - Width
| 31.7 to 17.9 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 24.0 to 20.0 mm
|
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 32.0 mm
| 6.1 mm
| 3.8 / 5.2 mm
| - 200mm
| 28.9 mm
| 4.5 mm
| 1.9 / 2.8 mm
| - 400mm
| 27.7 mm
| 3.2 mm
| 2.0 / 2.5 mm
| - 600mm
| 25.2 mm
| 2.7 mm
| 1.3 / 1.5 mm
| - 800mm
| 16.5 mm
| 1.3 mm
|
|
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 5:30:47 GMT
A neat sword. One of my observations over the years is that the 1796 hc dress swords, even with light skinny broadsword blades, were a nod to the earlier pallasch forms all the way back to the 17th century. When the mention of heirloom blades comes up would be remounts. Not necessarily an inherited blade but simply an older blade mounted in a modern of the day. My 1800 ish urn has a German backsword blade of similar cross section and stats.   Cheers GC |
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 23, 2021 6:13:03 GMT
It’s certainly possible that it is just a regular recycled blade, people were certainly less wasteful in those times. The only thing that makes me lean towards it being a ‘family’ blade is the Andrea Ferrara connection to Scotland. It’s quite a specific marking for a run of the mill recycled blade.
But as always this is pure speculation with hard evidence thin on the ground.
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 24, 2021 9:04:31 GMT
Grenadier Company Officer’s sabre from the late 18th Century.
Stemming from their experiences of fighting American rebel forces in the untamed countryside of the New World, British infantry officers of the late 18th Century began to dispense with their spontoon polearms in favour of more portable and convenient sidearms. Smallswords, hangers and spadroons became popular sword choices for officers in the field.
This trend was officially recognised with the regulation of 1786 which mandated that officers now carry a sword of no less than one inch wide at the base and thirty-two inches long in the blade. The decree from the King was the first official recognition of a regulation sword for officers in the British army. However, the decree failed to include instructions on what hilt design should be used, except that the metal should match the colour of the buttons of the uniform.
In 1788 a regulation was issued for cavalry as well, with light cavalry ordered to use a curved sabre and heavy a straight-bladed backsword. Once again, this regulation only made official what was already happening in practice. As with the 1786 regulation, the final design of the sword was left to the individual regiments to decide and procure resulting in were considerable variations in quality and design.
Naturally there was a fair amount of competition between and within the various branches of the armed services. In the infantry, the ‘Flank’ companies (named because they held the flanks of the infantry line) like the Light Companies, Rifle Companies, and the Grenadiers took specialist roles and were considered an elite troop. Because of this and the kind of intense fighting these troops faced they sought to distinguish themselves from the regular infantry and many adopted fashions based on another elite military unit, the cavalry.
In keeping with this many officers adopted their own versions of the curved sabre popularised by the exotic Hussars. Normally these sabres can be distinguished from the regular cavalry swords by their length, the regular mounted sword considered too long to be practical on foot. But as with many British swords of the time, a lot of variation exists.
This sword was manufactured by Dawes of Birmingham, a respected and prolific arms manufacturer better known for his troopers’ swords than officer swords. The single brass side ring guard features the flaming bomb of the Grenadiers while the pommel has the lion’s head that became synonymous with the later 1803 Pattern Flank officers’ sword.
The large blade is more typical for a 1788 regulation light cavalry sword and still retains traces of blue and guilt along with etched decorations typical of Georgian era officer swords. The Royal coat of arms retains the three fleur de lys indicating that the sword predates the 1801 change. The officer’s name - Thomas Beck – is etched in gilt on the spine of the blade.
A similar sword by Dawes, with the officer’s name on the spine and the flaming bomb on the guard features in ‘Swords of the British Army by Brian Robson on page 149 and another on page 176.
| Length Over All: | 970 mm
|
|
| | Blade Length: | 830 mm |
|
| | Curve: | 45.8 mm |
|
| | Point of balance: | 170 mm |
|
| | Sword Weight: | 840 grams |
|
| Total Weight:
| 1560 grams
|
|
| Guard
|
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 124 mm
|
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 50.0 mm
|
|
| - Height (Including langets)
| 18.0 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 4.8 mm
|
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 41.0 mm
|
|
| Grip
|
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 130 mm
|
|
| - Inside Length
| 105 mm
|
|
| - Width
| 38.0 to 29.7 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 24.4 to 21.0 mm
|
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 39.3 mm
| 8.4 mm
| 3.1 mm
| - 200mm
| 33.3 mm
| 5.8 mm
| 1.9 mm
| - 400mm
| 33.2 mm
| 5.3 mm
| 1.5 mm
| - 600mm
| 33.2 mm
| 3.8 mm
| 1.3 mm
| - 800mm
| 26.5 mm
| 1.7 mm
| 1.3 mm
|
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 28, 2021 9:06:33 GMT
French Epee d’officier d’infanterie m1767
The Infantry officer’s sword, model 1767 was introduced into service by royal decree in April 1767 and remained in general use right up until the French Revolution. The original regulation was for a gilded brass hilt a silver handle and ‘a la mousquetaire’ guard. Over the years the sword underwent some small changes. In the ordinance of September 2nd 1775 it was ordered that the blade would be flat and strong, 26 inches long. The swords of Staff Officers will be of the same design, but stronger with a blade that is 28 to 29 inches long (keep in mind that it was Napoleon who brought the metric system to France).
At the end of May 1776, the silver wire was changed to plated silver wire. Other changes include a gradual transition from the melon pommel to one of oval shape, the knuckle guard was modified so that the bulge was on the outside only and the annulets became less pronounced, in following with the fashion of other smallswords.
Just like in the British Army, French Officers were not above liberal interpretation of the regulations, and while hilt appearance broadly followed them, the same could not be said for the blades. France had a strong tradition of settling disputes with duals. Gentlemen were expected to defend their honour with the sword and were trained to do so from an early age. Naturally many had strong felt opinions on their preferred blade and this is reflected in the variety of blades that can be found mounted on the m1767 hilt.
This sword features a silver-, or silver-plated hilt, silver grip and faux turks-head furrels. The original round melon pommel and large annulets indicating that this is an early sword. It sports a robust 83cm colichemarde blade with simple etchings of a military nature on both sides.
Possible hallmark?:
| Length Over All: | 1000 mm
|
| | Blade Length: | 835 mm |
| | Point of balance: | 50 mm |
| | Sword Weight: | 490 grams |
| Guard
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 66.0 to 64.3 mm
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 69.8 mm
|
| - Height (Including Annullets)
| 34.2 mm
|
| - Thickness
| 2.1 - 1.4 mm
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 17.8.0 mm
|
| Grip
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 129 mm
|
| - Inside Length
| 94.8 mm
|
| - Width
| 29.9 to 19.7 mm
|
| - Thickness
| 24.8 to 18.5 mm
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| - Ricasso
| 31.5 mm
| 11.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 18.3 mm
| 8.3 mm
| - 400mm
| 13.4 mm
| 6.4 mm
| - 600mm
| 10.8 mm
| 5.5 mm
| - 800mm
| 8.3 mm
| 3.4 mm
|
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 28, 2021 23:42:54 GMT
Now for something from outside of my collecting interests, this one is only passing through my hands as it is a birthday present for my brother (everyone needs to get a sword for their birthday at some point in their life).
1828 Pattern Highland infantry officers basket-hilted broadsword, etched with the Edward VII Cypher dating it to the first ten years of the 20th century.
| Length Over All: | 1010 mm
|
|
| | Blade Length: | 840 mm |
|
| | Curve: | n/a
|
|
| | Point of balance: | 65 mm |
|
| | Sword Weight: | 1,270 grams |
|
| Total Weight:
| 1,800 grams
|
|
| Guard
|
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 150 mm
|
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 127 mm
|
|
| - Height (Including langets)
| 40.0 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 4.6 mm
|
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 40.0 mm
|
|
| Grip
|
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 160 mm
|
|
| - Inside Length
| 115 mm
|
|
| - Width
| 34.1 to 24.0 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 25.5 to 21.0 mm
|
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 28.8 mm
| 6.5 mm
|
| - 200mm
| 23.4 mm
| 5.4 mm
| 2.0 mm
| - 400mm
| 22.3 mm
| 5.5 mm
| 1.5 mm
| - 600mm
| 21.9 mm
| 3.0 mm
|
| - 800mm
| 18.2 mm
| 1.9 mm
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Oct 28, 2021 23:50:24 GMT
British 1803 Pattern Light Infantry officer’s sabre. Given Nick Thomas’ most recent video in his excellent Sword Studies series I thought it a good time to post up my own 1803 Pattern Infantry Officer’s sabre. As has been mentioned in my previous posts, a lot of the early sword patterns for the British armed forces were introduced ‘after the fact’ so that uniform regulations could catch up with what was already happening on the ground. Up until about the early to mid-twentieth century, officers from most of Europe’s’ armies had to purchase their own uniforms and equipment, including their swords. The natural result of this was that there can be found a significant amount (especially in the early nineteenth Century) of variation in the style, quality, and specifications of these swords. Some officers were accomplished fencers and were precise in their notion of what makes an ideal blade. Others were more conscious of fashion and the need to always look their best. And finally, there were those officers that needed to be mindful of their purse and purchased swords at the outfitters, indifferent to the quality of the weapon (being an officer in those times was an expensive business and the junior ranks needed significant financial backing while the worked their way up the ranks towards more profitable positions). By the beginning of the nineteenth century there was a significant movement away from the straight bladed 1796 Pattern infantry officers’ sword to a curved cavalry style sabre. Especially amongst the specialist infantry units. Skirmisher units, whose officers were more likely to become entangled in close quarter engagements and have to use their swords for more than directing their men. The 1803 Pattern became the official recognition of this trend and incorporated many of the features of the existing swords into a single pattern. Features such as the lion’s head pommel and the slot guard. Because the 1803 pattern related to the hilt only, there continued to be significant variation in the blade specifications, resulting in swords that were superbly curved and fashionable while completely ill suited to the style of fencing used by British officers. This 1803 bares the bugle emblem of the Light Company and was retailed by Griffin & Adams, sword cutlers who operated between 1800 and 1828. As a cutler they would have purchased their blades and then added the fittings and designs themselves. The hilt has the half lion’s head and the grip is wire bound instead of the usual leather and wire or shagrin that is more typical. The blade length is fairly standard for the time, but the blade curvature (73mm) is at the limit of what could be considered appropriate for British swordsmanship
| Length Over All: | 887 mm
|
|
| | Blade Length: | 760 mm |
|
| | Curve: | 73.2 mm |
|
| | Point of balance: | 130 mm |
|
| | Sword Weight: | 760 grams |
|
| Total Weight:
| 1270 grams
|
|
| Guard
|
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 10 mm
|
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 57.0 mm
|
|
| - Height (Including langets)
| 10.4 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 4.1 mm
|
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 42.1 mm
|
|
| Grip
|
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 115 mm
|
|
| - Inside Length
| 102 mm
|
|
| - Width
| 38.4 to 30.4 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 20.6 to 23.9 mm
|
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 34.6 mm
| 7.0 mm
| 3.5 mm
| - 200mm
| 31.7 mm
| 4.6 mm
| 1.8 mm
| - 400mm
| 32.1 mm
| 3.9 mm
| 1.6 mm
| - 600mm
| 34.2 mm
| 1.9 mm
|
| - 730mm
| 23.7 mm
| 1.0 mm
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by bas on Feb 12, 2022 3:03:53 GMT
British 1803 Pattern Flank Officers Sabre.
This 1803 has the full lion's head, leather grip and the Light Company strung bugle emblem above GR on the Guard. It was produced by Bennett of 67 Royal Exchange and has a blade imported from Solingen. Because Runkel stopped importing blades in 1808, when Napoleon invaded Prussia, we can date the sword to between 1803 and 1808.
One of the things that is noticable with the Runkel baldes, is that they tend to be beefier than a lot of the other 1803 sabres. And I have to wonder if he didn't adopt a 'one size fits all' policy on his sabre blades.
Certainly this blade would be out of place on an officers' 1796 Pattern light cavalry sabre.
| Length Over All: | 960 mm
|
|
| | Blade Length: | 812 mm |
|
| | Curve: | 55 mm |
|
| | Point of balance: | 135 mm |
|
| | Sword Weight: | 840 grams |
|
| Total Weight:
| 1270 grams
|
|
| Guard
|
|
|
| - Length (Across the hand)
| 120 mm
|
|
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 55 mm
|
|
| - Height (Including langets)
| 14 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 3.7 mm
|
|
| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 54.4 mm
|
|
| Grip
|
|
|
| - Outside Length
| 134 mm
|
|
| - Inside Length
| 100 mm
|
|
| - Width
| 36.4 to 29.1 mm
|
|
| - Thickness
| 24.2 mm
|
|
| Blade Width
|
| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 35.4 mm
| 9.3 mm
| 5.3 mm
| - 200mm
| 30.0 mm
| 6.4 mm
| 1.9 mm
| - 400mm
| 29.3 mm
| 4.9 mm
| 1.2 mm
| - 600mm
| 32.0 mm
| 2.9 mm
| 0.8 mm
| - 700mm
| 33.0 mm
| 2.4 mm
|
| - 750mm
| 29.1 mm
| 1.9 mm
|
|
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 12, 2022 8:40:41 GMT
Man, this is something else!
Absolutely wonderful collection!
With the good and clear pictures, the wealth of information and meticulous numbers your thread should be stickied.
Really, we're looking at an excellent sabre book. For free.
Thank you very much!
I hope you have all this on a USB stick and/or in the cloud for backup?
Cheers.
|
|
