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Post by bas on Aug 1, 2021 1:09:00 GMT
Thanks GC, it's certainly the lightest of my four smallswords. How can I tell if the hilt is iron or steel? I agree with you on the style of engraving being common into the early 19th Century. These swords are a challenge to date so my mid-18th century was more of a stab... so to speak. Despite its' light weight and small hilt, the sword feels like a serious weapon, the blade is stiff and the point sharp.
Those are nice quality on the engravings on your blade there.
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Post by bas on Aug 1, 2021 1:43:24 GMT
European late 18th Century smallsword with chiselled and pierced steel hilt. Symmetrical 'pas d'ane' guard decorated in military trophies and a single quillon. Square wooden core grip bound in copper ribbon and twisted wire. Hollow ground tri-form blade marked I.C.B for Johann and Clemens Boegel of Solingen.
| Length Over All: | 991 mm | | Blade Length: | 830 mm | | Point of balance: | 75 mm | | Sword Weight: | 320 grams | Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 75.6 mm
| - Height (Grip to top of shell)
| 24.1 mm
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 79.3 mm
| - Quillion Length
| 99.6 mm
| - Inside (grip to guard)
| 48.6 mm
| - Shell Thickness
| 2.3 mm
| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 140 mm
| - Inside Length
| 103 mm
| - Width
| 18.7 to 21.0 mm
| - Thickness
| 18.5 to 22.0 mm
| Blade Width:
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| - Ricasso
| 19.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 13.2 mm
| - 400mm
| 10.1 mm
| - 600mm
| 7.8 mm
| - 800mm
| 4.7 mm
| | Blade Thickness: |
| - Ricasso
| 8.2 mm
| | - 200mm | 6.3 mm | - 400mm
| 5.8 mm
| - 600mm
| 5.4 mm
| - 800mm
| 3.0 mm
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 2:55:27 GMT
I am missing my notes for cast steel pommels but let me dig in the files. I do have this one page and certainly these were cast and chased but an early date for steel. How to assay? I'll have to dig for the discussion, the img was harvested May 2008 for wherever the heck I found it. This pre-stroke debate is mostly lost in my mind. It was one of the SFI smiths and I looking at casting steel parts and steel production overall through the centuries. It was a good thread.  Huntsman in England (1740) was seeking crucible steel as a clockmaker and soon others were casting ingots from shear steel for cutlery (and sword blades), so basically refining the steel. I suppose your hilt is probably steel but the French were pioneering casting iron before that. I should actually do some more reading in the Norman book. Cast iron is not what my thoughts were but rather mild steel, regarded (by me anyway) as iron. Not hardenable like cutlery, sword blades. Cheers GC |
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Post by bas on Aug 1, 2021 3:02:45 GMT
Cast iron is not what my thoughts were but rather mild steel, regarded (by me anyway) as iron. Got you, I know what you mean by iron / mild steel, I swing between the two terms, never sure which to use. Especially with hilts and scabbards, should they be described as iron or mild steel…. I doubt the hilt is high carbon steel, why go to the effort and extra work in the detailing when normal mild steel (iron) will suffice. Also what is the difference between chiselled and chased? |
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Post by bas on Aug 1, 2021 21:09:25 GMT
English Silver Hilt Smallsword c.1770. No visible hallmarks, guard and pommel finely pierced with radial star burst and chased with flutes and raised imitation ‘stud work’, pierced knuckle bow and quillon block, grip bound with silver tape and twisted silver wire, hollow ground triangular-section blade etched with foliate ornament and strapwork.
| Length Over All: | 922 mm | | Blade Length: | 763 mm | | Point of balance: | 80 mm | | Sword Weight: | 330 grams | Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 78.0 mm
| - Height (Grip to top of shell)
| 21.2 mm
| - Width (Across the hand)
| 67.1 mm
| - Quillion Length
| 85.4 mm
| - Inside (grip to guard)
| 34.6 mm
| - Shell Thickness
| 4.0 mm
| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 140 mm
| - Inside Length
| 100 mm
| - Width
| 19.1 to 24.8 mm
| - Thickness
| 15.9 to 20.6 mm
| Blade Width:
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| - Ricasso
| 20.3 mm
| - 200mm
| 15.6 mm
| - 400mm
| 10.9 mm
| - 600mm
| 8.6 mm
| - 800mm
| 6.6 mm
| | Blade Thickness: |
| - Ricasso
| 8.9 mm
| | - 200mm | 7.0 mm | - 400mm
| 5.9 mm
| - 600mm
| 4.7 mm
| - 800mm
| 4.0 mm
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Post by bas on Aug 1, 2021 23:24:58 GMT
Sabre de Cavalerie de Ligne des Modeles An XIII ‘Sabre of the line cavalry model of year 13′ - French heavy cavalry troopers sabre as issued to the Dragoons and Cuirassiers of the Napoleonic ‘Grande Armee’. This examples’ blade is marked AP for Arsenal de Paris, which was turned into a military approval and storage facility after 1796. Next to the lictor bundle stamp, an approval mark for the French war administration from 1795 to possibly as late as 1814. This possibly indicates that the blade was of private or foreign manufacture so required an official quality test before acceptance. The hilt was manufactured in Versailles and carries multiple inspector stamps. Between 1814 and 1816 most of the AN XIII sword blades in service had the point re-profiled from a hatchet tip to a spear tip. The original leather or steel scabbard was also replaced with the 1816 model shown. Much loved by the French Cuirassiers who were reluctant to give them up, these swords had a long service life and it is not uncommon to find an First Empire manufactured blade mounted on a later model 1854 hilt. For more on these interesting and iconic swords click on the excellent links below.
| Length Over All: | 1020 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 960 mm |
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| | Curve: | 3.5 mm
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| | Point of balance: | 140 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 1300 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 2300 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 114 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 82.7 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| N/A
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| - Thickness
| 3.1 to 1.8 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 47.4 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 157 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 123 mm
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| - Width
| 38.7 to 33.8 mm
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| - Thickness
| 28.8 to 25.7 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 35.4 mm
| 9.6 mm
| 6.6 / 5.2 mm
| - 200mm
| 30.8 mm
| 5.6 mm
| 1.4 / 1.8 mm
| - 400mm
| 27.9 mm
| 5.8 mm
| 1.7 / 1.7 mm
| - 600mm
| 25.5 mm
| 5.2 mm
| 1.6 / 1.9 mm
| - 800mm
| 22.9 mm
| 4.1 mm
| 1.4 / 1.3 mm
| - 900mm
| 21.0 mm
| 3.3 mm
| 1.1 / 1.3 mm
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 2, 2021 11:57:25 GMT
Great new acquisitions!
Very fine set of small swords and the AN XIII for sure is a great buy.
Thanks for sharing and for the numbers.
Also for the to the point description of key assessment points.
Thanks again.
Could the smallsword with the gold(?) inlay be of Japanese make on order from the Decima Dutch and imported by them?
When I look at it I get this vibe.
They had a line of Japanned small sword hilts back then inlaid with gold patterns. Were a great hit everywhere.
The hilts were lacquered black by Japanese craftsmen who also did the inlay.
Much like the Japanese lacquered boxes the Dutch also sold all over Europe.
Cheers, P.
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Post by bas on Aug 2, 2021 20:55:21 GMT
Great new acquisitions! Very fine set of small swords and the AN XIII for sure is a great buy. Thanks for sharing and for the numbers. Also for the to the point description of key assessment points. Thanks again. Could the smallsword with the gold(?) inlay be of Japanese make on order from the Decima Dutch and imported by them? When I look at it I get this vibe. They had a line of Japanned small sword hilts back then inlaid with gold patterns. Were a great hit everywhere. The hilts were lacquered black by Japanese craftsmen who also did the inlay. Much like the Japanese lacquered boxes the Dutch also sold all over Europe. Cheers, P. Thank you Uhlan.
That's interesting information about the smallsword, that it could be Japanese made, I agree that it does give off a bit of a Japanese vibe. Not sure how one would go about researching that though. Still it's good to have new challenges.
I'll put up the sword I showed you previously, next.
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Post by bas on Aug 2, 2021 21:06:31 GMT
Dutch m.1800 light Dragoons NCO / officer's sabre:
Initially described as Early 19th Century French, this sword is actually not as straight forward to place. The overall appearance follows the French ‘Sabre la Hongroise’ or Hungarian style with some noticeable differences. Originally popularised by the Hungarian Hussars serving with the French Army from the late 17th Century, this style was widely emulated by many countries towards the end of the 18th Century. Generally speaking, the French Hussar sabres follow a slightly different profile to the hilt than this sword. The later swords have tear shaped langets a straight quillion and a smoother dove’s head pommel. But Jean L’Hoste’s book ‘Les Sabres’ features enough swords with the same langets, beaked pommel and curved quillion to indicate that the style was popular with French light cavalry officers. The presence of the leather ‘forage cord’ on the scabbard also points to it being used with French troops. Finally one authority on Napoleonic swords identified it as a Dutch m.1800 Light Dragoons NCO or Officers’ sabre. Pointing out that while the blade decoration is typical of Solingen produced blades the RYS on the spine is written in typical Dutch fashion with the umlaut over the y to making the name Rijs. Rather than a maker, it is possible this was the cutler that finished the blade into a complete sword. With the Kingdom of the Netherlands getting absorbed into the French Empire in 1810 they did contribute their own troops to the Grande Armee so it is entirely possible that it saw French service. Unfortunately this is all speculation and after two hundred years we’re likely to never know. But that it might have been of Dutch origin appeals to me so it’s the story I stick to. | Length Over All: | 960 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 830 mm |
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| | Curve: | 53.3 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 165 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 660 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1230 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 115 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 28.6 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 63.0 mm
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| - Thickness
| 5.0 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 37.3 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 120 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 105 mm
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| - Width
| 39.9 to 28.9 mm
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| - Thickness
| 28.4 to 22.8 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 30.9 mm
| 8.7 mm
| 6.0 mm
| - 200mm
| 26.2 mm
| 5.7 mm
| 1.8 mm
| - 400mm
| 26.2 mm
| 4.8 mm
| 1.2 mm
| - 600mm
| 26.3 mm
| 3.2 mm
| 0.8 mm
| - 800mm
| 16.5 mm
| 1.6 mm
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 2:44:11 GMT
Napoleonic era British 1796 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Officers’ Dress sword.
What is now commonly refered to as the 1796 Regulation Heavy Cavalry Dress Sword actually went by several names during the period it was in use. Called the dress sword, frock sword or dismounted sword. It was a sword for heavy cavalry officers to wear when on dismounted duty, being lighter and more convient than the heavy cavalry officers’ un-dress or mounted sword. The existance of several examples with metal scabbards indicates that these swords were even worn in the field. Featuring a boatshell guard and oval pommel they most commonly have a double edged blade with a single fuller running down the middle. Many carry blades supplied by J J Runkel of Solingen but other makers such as Gill and Osborn also feature promiently. This style of sword was also carried by general staff officers which may explain why these are more common than the 1796 Pattern heavy cavalry officers' un-dress sword. Another reason could be that they were purchased by Yeomanry Officers, who used the Ordanance Board supplied troopers swords for exercises. This is ofcourse only speculation on my part. My sword carries a J.J Runkel blade, which dates it from between 1796 to 1808 when Runkel stopped trading. The blue and gilt on the blade is in very good condition and features a foliate design, GR cypher and trophy of arms. The guard has been pierced with a row of holes on the inside edge and this would have been used to hold a piece of cloth to protect the offiers’ uniform from extra wear.
| Length Over All: | 975 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 810 mm |
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| | Curve: | 0 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 75 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 890 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1150 grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 127 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 92 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 22.4 mm
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| - Thickness
| 3.5 to 1 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 37.8 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 145 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 108 mm
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| - Width
| 19.8 to 28.5 mm
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| - Thickness
| 21.2 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 29.3 mm
| 8.5 mm
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| - 200mm
| 23.5 mm
| 4.3 mm
| 3.3 mm
| - 400mm
| 21.0 mm
| 4.1 mm
| 1.9 mm
| - 600mm
| 18.4 mm
| 3.8 mm
| 2.2 mm
| - 800mm
| 7.1 mm
| 1.5 mm
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 4:38:28 GMT
Another 1796:
British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Officers’ Sabre by H. Osborn
One of the most iconic British cavalry swords of all, the 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry sabre came out of the collaboration of British Cavalry officer John Gaspard Le Marchant and the Birmingham cutler Henry Osborn.
Dissatisfied with the performance of the 1788 pattern swords and the British cavalry in general during the campaigns in the Low Countries (1793 - 1795) Le Marchant set about writing his treatise for the British cavalry and the use of the sword based largely on his experience in the field and what he saw as the superior training and ability of the Austrian cavalry.
Favouring the cut over thrust as a form of attack Le Marchant designed a curved sword that followed the lines of the Hussar sabres and was intended to be a powerful cutter with a forward point of balance and broad flat tip. Le Marchant was successfully lobbied the authorities and his design and manual were officially approved by King George III in 1796. Oddly enough, his intention to equip the heavy cavalry with the 1796 sabre was not approved and they adopted a straight bladed sword that was an almost direct copy of the Austrian pallasch.
My sword is an officers’ sabre manufactured by H. Osborn in 1800 and instead of the usual blue and gilt decoration, features detailed etchings in the first half of the blade, on both sides. Another less commonly seen feature is the loop for the sword knot at the top of the grip, below the inside langet.
We can date the sword to 1800 by the pre-1801 coat of arms and the H.Osborn Bordesley signature on the Ricasso. He was manufacturing at the Bordesly address from 1800 onwards. In 1805 he went into partnership with John Gunby at which point the swords were marked Osborn and Gunby until 1821 when the partnership dissolved.
   
Addtitonal links:
Sabre / Sword: | Length Over All: | 940 mm
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| | Blade Length: | 810 mm |
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| | Curve: | 61.0 mm |
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| | Point of balance: | 160 mm |
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| | Sword Weight: | 900 grams |
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| Total Weight:
| 1520grams
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| Guard
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| - Length (Across the hand)
| 110 mm
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| - Width (Across the hand)
| 28.1 mm
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| - Height (Including langets)
| 30.1 mm
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| - Thickness
| 5.3 mm
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| - Inside (Grip to guard)
| 38.2 / 53.8 mm
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| Grip
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| - Outside Length
| 120 mm
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| - Inside Length
| 100 mm
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| - Width
| 37.2 to 30.6 mm
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| - Thickness
| 23.8 mm
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| Blade Width
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| Blade Thickness
| Thickness Inside Fuller
| - Ricasso
| 35.0 mm
| 10.2 mm
| 6.8 mm
| - 200mm
| 33.9 mm
| 5.7 mm
| 2.0 mm
| - 400mm
| 33.4 mm
| 4.7 mm
| 1.4 mm
| - 600mm
| 38.4 mm
| 2.5 mm
| 0.8 mm
| - 700mm
| 41.0 mm
| 2.3 mm
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| - 780mm
| 24.1 mm
| 1.5 mm
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2021 12:07:51 GMT
That is a great Osborn sword. In a way, it confirms bright etch was happening in Birmingham by the turn of the century. My $64 question is if there is a G or GG at the base of the blade (maybe obscured by the langet).
Cheers
GC
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Post by Pino on Aug 3, 2021 13:56:22 GMT
I really like the blade engravings on that Osborn sabre, very detailed!
Also think the 1800's Dutch sword has been used on more than one campaign. I think that the scabbard may be a French 1792 trooper's but possibly scavenged to replace a broken one (happened frequently).
Keep it up, your swords are so much fun to look at!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2021 14:11:02 GMT
The etch is even more interesting to me as it can be placed in time. Here is a Bolton blade of the same timeline. It pushes back the b&g examples of the same swords.  Cheers GC |
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 3, 2021 17:03:40 GMT
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 19:16:28 GMT
I really like the blade engravings on that Osborn sabre, very detailed! Also think the 1800's Dutch sword has been used on more than one campaign. I think that the scabbard may be a French 1792 trooper's but possibly scavenged to replace a broken one (happened frequently). Keep it up, your swords are so much fun to look at! I agree that the scabbard is a likely replacement, either in period or in the last 100 years by someone with a spare, I try to remain realistic about these things. The gap in the throat for the langets is too wide for the ones on the handle. What it does have going for it is that it is a good fit, not loose, not too tight and the correct length. Plus there were Dutch Hussars serving with the French Army in that time period and I have seen at least one drawing attributed to a Dutch Hussar that shows the forage cord. On the Osborn, it was the engravings that sold it for me, have you seen the additional photos on Tumblr? On one side it has the mounted cavalry man, while on the other he’s dismounted scaling a wall over a cannon. Would like to have yours and GC’s input on what symbolism (if any) it could have. |
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 19:27:29 GMT
My $64 question is if there is a G or GG at the base of the blade (maybe obscured by the langet). Cheers GC I think it does, it is difficult to be sure, but there looks to be the top half of a G under the outside langet. It is unfortunately obscured by the washer so I’ll need to take a better look. |
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 19:30:13 GMT
That’s an amazing sword, thank you for the link. Another for the database. Alas I don’t think the styles match the ones on my sword. The detail on the Japanese sword is of an entirely higher level and more oriental. My one looks more Greek / Roman inspired with the reclining figures. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2021 21:24:00 GMT
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Post by bas on Aug 3, 2021 21:34:18 GMT
This is the image I was refering to:
In my original post, it's the first under Additional links.
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