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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Dec 26, 2019 22:00:18 GMT
Watch 'Master of the Flying Guillotine' some time...the old assassin priest has them all over his costume. But we are off topic again... Weapons that do evil... Maybe a rock in my backyard brained someone. It's being punished as part of a wall now.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 26, 2019 22:07:19 GMT
I am reminded, suddenly, of the uproar and outrage among the anime community when one of the characters in Bleach had a "swastika" tsuba. No, it's a manji. It's Buddhist. yea this too. Just because Nazis appropriated symbols that already existed, doesn't mean we should let them destroy them. They were already taken. They are destroyed. Past tense. The bell can't be unrung. "Taking them back" is just utter cluelessness, in both it's lack of comprehension and empathy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 22:44:56 GMT
yea this too. Just because Nazis appropriated symbols that already existed, doesn't mean we should let them destroy them. They were already taken. They are destroyed. Past tense. The bell can't be unrung. "Taking them back" is just utter cluelessness, in both it's lack of comprehension and empathy. It's not a lack of empathy, so much as it is as associating it with something different than most do It's weird being told to have empathy when I feel disdain for my people is the more prominent thing I experience online To be honest, due to that, it's really hard to over come that mental block that stops me from doing so
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 26, 2019 23:10:32 GMT
Dragging the Third Reich into discussions outside of dedicated boards is no different than hot headed politics of any nature. Let's do abortion and the death penalty next, shall we? Not that stretched as an analogy when the OP question was about WWII axis weapons and attitudes towards them, is it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 23:15:25 GMT
Dragging the Third Reich into discussions outside of dedicated boards is no different than hot headed politics of any nature. Let's do abortion and the death penalty next, shall we? Not that stretched as an analogy when the OP question was about WWII axis weapons and attitudes towards them, is it? I think OP was more inspired about the talk me and another member had about guntos, when he expressed that he found the atrocities committed with them a reason he would never be interested in owning them. Nazis were kinda brought in as something to compare them to, in order to get others to empathize I think
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 23:34:38 GMT
Dragging the Third Reich into discussions outside of dedicated boards is no different than hot headed politics of any nature. Let's do abortion and the death penalty next, shall we? Not that stretched as an analogy when the OP question was about WWII axis weapons and attitudes towards them, is it? The original thread starter post is gone, making what follows pretty much a food fight. What is left is the ongoing debate relating ideals and symbolism instead of regarding the weapons themselves and an interest in owning one. The entire line of posts following regarding the ideals and symbolism have lost any contextual value (in my view) regarding owning and collecting a period blade of any kind. I find the discussion of these last pages fairly laughable and despite being of the _only_few persons actually posting of a topical item in their life, we are left with (once again) pretty much ignoring the objects at hand. susq goes on in another thread about wanting a blooded blade and what I read as a bit hypocritical. Then in the end, a bit of attentive misdirection and a misspoken statement. A lot of keystrokes and useless electrons expended for what? Something to do, right? Cheers GC
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 0:05:05 GMT
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 27, 2019 1:11:30 GMT
Why bother trying to find a way to continue using a symbol so indelibly tainted in the modern era? There is certainly no shortage of other symbols from antiquity one can use to similar effect. The triskelion being a perfect example of a viable alternative, and one which lacks the negative associations of the swastika. The calls of people claiming they want to "take back" the iconography co-opted by the Nazis (and other white supremacist organisations) are either accidentally or intentionally tone deaf. You're not sticking it to the Nazis when you wear a t-shirt emblazoned with a tetraskelion. To the contrary, by doing so you're terrorizing the same people historically victimized by the hate-mongers who took that symbol as their own, while also displaying for everyone that you're some combination of oblivious, ignorant, and cruel. You definitely make good points. Still, I can't help but think what neutralizing the Nazism of the swastika would do.... Symbols by their very nature are dependant on what significance we give them. Many of the people involved in modern Nazi sympathy movements revel in the shock and outrage they provoke. They're in it for the attention. Nazism/racism is probably one of the most taboo movements in our modern era; thus, it attracts people trying to cash in on the explosive controversy surrounding it's symbols. If people responded with laughter and boredom to displays of Nazi sympathy, I think there'd be a lot less people willing to engage in such behavior. Obviously you'd still have a core group of dangerous fanatics, but your typical bored teen would be far less entranced by the forbidden nature of the movement. Now certainly I'm against actually displaying swastikas without any context: that's simply a bad idea. Much too easy to be mistaken for an actual Nazi sympathizer. But it'd be great if one day the swastika wasn't seen as the symbol of racism-based mass murder. Take away their symbols, and you take away a lot of their power.
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 1:41:00 GMT
Why bother trying to find a way to continue using a symbol so indelibly tainted in the modern era? There is certainly no shortage of other symbols from antiquity one can use to similar effect. The triskelion being a perfect example of a viable alternative, and one which lacks the negative associations of the swastika. The calls of people claiming they want to "take back" the iconography co-opted by the Nazis (and other white supremacist organisations) are either accidentally or intentionally tone deaf. You're not sticking it to the Nazis when you wear a t-shirt emblazoned with a tetraskelion. To the contrary, by doing so you're terrorizing the same people historically victimized by the hate-mongers who took that symbol as their own, while also displaying for everyone that you're some combination of oblivious, ignorant, and cruel. You definitely make good points. Still, I can't help but think what neutralizing the Nazism of the swastika would do.... Symbols by their very nature are dependant on what significance we give them. Many of the people involved in modern Nazi sympathy movements revel in the shock and outrage they provoke. They're in it for the attention. Nazism/racism is probably one of the most taboo movements in our modern era; thus, it attracts people trying to cash in on the explosive controversy surrounding it's symbols. If people responded with laughter and boredom to displays of Nazi sympathy, I think there'd be a lot less people willing to engage in such behavior. Obviously you'd still have a core group of dangerous fanatics, but your typical bored teen would be far less entranced by the forbidden nature of the movement. Now certainly I'm against actually displaying swastikas without any context: that's simply a bad idea. Much too easy to be mistaken for an actual Nazi sympathizer. But it'd be great if one day the swastika wasn't seen as the symbol of racism-based mass murder. Take away their symbols, and you take away a lot of their power. This may be the best way in minimizing/neutralizing the symbol (and negative movement it stands for). Education, laughter, ridicule, discussion I believe work better than banning, which give a taboo allure and fuels conspiracy theories among the troubled fools who are attracted to them. I despise what the Third Reich stood for and would like to know the creep who embraced such beliefs and was stupid enough to wear it in public (saves a lot of guess work ).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 1:44:00 GMT
What is that filling made from? Great handiwork too
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 1:46:06 GMT
No, it must be taught and shown and never forgotten for the evil that it was, so that it is never repeated. I agree that the evils of Nazism needs to be taught as an object lesson on how easy it is for people to sell out their humanity for a handful of self-aggrandizing fictions. Human tribalism has been the root cause of so many of our vilest atrocities. However, we certainly don't need to sell antiques and reproductions of Nazi paraphernalia knowing full well that many will end up in the hands of those who sympathize, fetishize, and mythologize the Nazis and what they stood for. I can think of no justifiable reason that a decent person would need to own a Nazi flag, uniform, or weapon. Museums dedicated to teaching subsequent generations about the evils of Nazidom are the place for such things. Anything symbolic of that movement which isn't being actively used to express that we will never again allow that cancer to act unopposed, should be destroyed. I sympathize with you on things having the Swastika symbol, but I would admit it would be pretty cool having a Tiger tank or on of those Sturmgewehr 44 (machine gun)...which brings up the question of what is Nazi and what is just a weapon used by a German soldier in WW2.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 1:48:00 GMT
I agree that the evils of Nazism needs to be taught as an object lesson on how easy it is for people to sell out their humanity for a handful of self-aggrandizing fictions. Human tribalism has been the root cause of so many of our vilest atrocities. However, we certainly don't need to sell antiques and reproductions of Nazi paraphernalia knowing full well that many will end up in the hands of those who sympathize, fetishize, and mythologize the Nazis and what they stood for. I can think of no justifiable reason that a decent person would need to own a Nazi flag, uniform, or weapon. Museums dedicated to teaching subsequent generations about the evils of Nazidom are the place for such things. Anything symbolic of that movement which isn't being actively used to express that we will never again allow that cancer to act unopposed, should be destroyed. I sympathize with you on things having the Swastika symbol, but I would admit it would be pretty cool having a Tiger tank or on of those Sturmgewehr 44 (machine gun)...which brings up the question of what is Nazi and what is just a weapon used by a German soldier in WW2. From what I understand, if you need to have a discussion, it is likely something the public isn't really desiring a talk about. I don't say that with resentment either. I would rather just accept it as is
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 1:59:46 GMT
I sympathize with you on things having the Swastika symbol, but I would admit it would be pretty cool having a Tiger tank or on of those Sturmgewehr 44 (machine gun)...which brings up the question of what is Nazi and what is just a weapon used by a German soldier in WW2. From what I understand, if you need to have a discussion, it is likely something the public isn't really desiring a talk about. I don't say that with resentment either. I would rather just accept it as is Yeah, simply put I liked the Tiger tanks (all tanks, really) when I was a kid, but don't like the Third Reich crap.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 2:00:01 GMT
"What is that filling made from? Great handiwork too"
Potstickas can have most any filling. Most typically pork.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 27, 2019 2:03:54 GMT
I agree that the evils of Nazism needs to be taught as an object lesson on how easy it is for people to sell out their humanity for a handful of self-aggrandizing fictions. Human tribalism has been the root cause of so many of our vilest atrocities. However, we certainly don't need to sell antiques and reproductions of Nazi paraphernalia knowing full well that many will end up in the hands of those who sympathize, fetishize, and mythologize the Nazis and what they stood for. I can think of no justifiable reason that a decent person would need to own a Nazi flag, uniform, or weapon. Museums dedicated to teaching subsequent generations about the evils of Nazidom are the place for such things. Anything symbolic of that movement which isn't being actively used to express that we will never again allow that cancer to act unopposed, should be destroyed. I sympathize with you on things having the Swastika symbol, but I would admit it would be pretty cool having a Tiger tank or on of those Sturmgewehr 44 (machine gun)...which brings up the question of what is Nazi and what is just a weapon used by a German soldier in WW2. A German soldier in WW2 was a Nazi.
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 2:09:46 GMT
I sympathize with you on things having the Swastika symbol, but I would admit it would be pretty cool having a Tiger tank or on of those Sturmgewehr 44 (machine gun)...which brings up the question of what is Nazi and what is just a weapon used by a German soldier in WW2. A German soldier in WW2 was a Nazi. I think there is a galactically wide range of soldiers, from the 10 year old boy lied to by propaganda campaigns to sociopathic murderers. A pretty complicated topic and probably beyond our pay grade to even discuss here. Pandora box alert.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 27, 2019 2:13:54 GMT
A German soldier in WW2 was a Nazi. I think there is a galactically wide range of soldiers, from the 10 year old boy lied to by propaganda campaigns to sociopathic murderers. A pretty complicated topic and probably beyond our pay grade to even discuss here. Pandora box alert. I'm sorry - but I mean a German soldier or soldier fighting for the Nazi Reich is a Nazi.
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 2:17:14 GMT
I think there is a galactically wide range of soldiers, from the 10 year old boy lied to by propaganda campaigns to sociopathic murderers. A pretty complicated topic and probably beyond our pay grade to even discuss here. Pandora box alert. I'm sorry - but I mean a German soldier or soldier fighting for the Nazi Reich is a Nazi. Then I'll simplify: Ten year old boy soldier lied to by propaganda not equal to Hitler. So we are now left with individual assessment of evil. Those who believed in Nazi concepts were certainly Nazi, so maybe that is the measure of evil. Again, complicated discussion. I always made a distinction between German soldiers and Nazi (those who believed in and fought...with understanding of and for the cause). Civilian ignorance in a poor excuse, and Germany paid DEARLY for those abominable 12 years of horror.
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Post by bebut on Dec 27, 2019 2:27:43 GMT
Yawn..... so every dumb peasant who fought for the Viet Cong was a Communist and he and all symbols related to him should be shunned?
Should he and his nation be condemned forever for their war crimes, mass murders, labor re-education camps, etc.?
Or do we just pick on poor Adolph and his pathetic 12 Year Reich?
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Post by howler on Dec 27, 2019 2:30:41 GMT
Yawn..... so every dumb peasant who fought for the Viet Cong was a Communist and he and all symbols related to him should be shunned? Should he and his nation be condemned forever for their war crimes, mass murders, labor re-education camps, etc.? Or do we just pick on poor Adolph and his pathetic 12 Year Reich? THIS is kind of why a make a distinction. I mean, was Sgt. Schultz of Hogan's Heroes REALLY a Nazi?
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