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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 8, 2019 5:48:51 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 8, 2019 7:41:45 GMT
Strange, I would have thought that that would come up in some of the manuals or accounts regarding cavalry sword usage I had read. Or reflections on the designs. A jump in logic? "One of the typical things that happened in WW2 was Nazi officers executing Jews with the 9mm, so nearly every 9mm pistol was meant for committing war crimes".
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 8, 2019 7:52:41 GMT
Joker: How can you shoot women and children?! Door Gunner: Easy! You just don't lead 'em so much! Ain't war Hell?
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Dec 8, 2019 8:38:38 GMT
Blades like firearms don't have crimes nor are they evil. The person using it committed the crime or is evil. Very few gunto were to kill anyone.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 8, 2019 9:23:37 GMT
I think swords are not only fighting tools but also symbols for certain cultures. But there can be different opinions on what or whom a certain sword symbolizes. A viking sword can be seen as a symbol for bold adventurers or brutal raiders and enslavers. The victims of certain sword cultures or their descendants usually tend to see only the negative aspects. And may forget what their own stuff means for other people. I can understand that someone damns certain swords for what they symbolize to him but also someone who doesn't have such feelings.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 8, 2019 15:39:22 GMT
Any sword type has done bad things.
However, I think swords or symbols specifically tied to evil regimes within or just shy of living memory can be reasonably shunned.
I would not be friends with a guy who displays or specifically collects Nazi daggers.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 8, 2019 16:33:42 GMT
Jordan, it was your post I was referring to but as I said I meant no criticism of you or the swords you or anyone else likes. I guess I thought it a little strange to not like one type of sword and to like another when I’m sure as others have said all sword types have been used evilly at some point. Next, I don’t mean to be disrespectful to any culture but depending on which theory you believe in all human life started in Africa or Mesopotamia. There were no humans in North America, the Western Hemisphere or any where else until they walked, rode or boated there. Again no disrespect meant to anyone. The reason I picked American history was I am American so I had some basic education in that. I’m not a history buff ( that’s why I can enjoy shows and movies that so many on here don’t like) so I don’t know much about those other examples you gave. Again, I was not picking on you. You and everyone else can like or not like any sword or anything else for whatever reasons just as I do.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 8, 2019 19:24:34 GMT
I own a Japanese NCO saber which was my first real sword that I got when I was about twelve. Never gave it any thought as to what happened to it in it's past. Willing to bet it never willingly killed anyone on it's own. Am I going to get rid of it or destroy it because of what it might have been used to do more than seventy plus years ago ? Nope. It's past is it's past.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 8, 2019 19:33:48 GMT
I do have two swords that I know for sure has drawn blood. Two of my Albions and the blood was my own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 20:18:32 GMT
"Edelweiss can chime in there"
Note how long it took me to even open a thread regarding a topic few understand and then realize I'm not likely to offer much response.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 21:02:31 GMT
Ok, for the morbid and truly curious. Consider four of the better known western US "campaigns"
1864 Sand Creek Chivington many natives killed and mutilated by swords.
1868 four years later, better guns Washita, Custer et al. Black Kettle had survived Sand Creek to be shot dead (reported to be shot in the back) at Washita.
1876 Little Bighorn. The prologue there was Custer having the sabers packed up and sent back to the fort (would it have mattered?).
1890 Wounded Knee, as complex a day as Little Bighorn but an abomination.
For those choosing wikis and Hollywood as their history primers, read further if interested. The true saber and sword years of the US go back go all the way back to the colonies and firelocks, a couple of centuries and more. That, just in the northern hemisphere. Add the Spanish conquests to the mix.
I have no problem with what some choose to collect and in my case have had both reflective and respectable conversations with local descendants regarding native histories at public displays.
Cheers GC
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Post by howler on Dec 8, 2019 21:12:27 GMT
Any sword type has done bad things. However, I think swords or symbols specifically tied to evil regimes within or just shy of living memory can be reasonably shunned. I would not be friends with a guy who displays or specifically collects Nazi daggers. I would be leery as well of someone who primarily displayed a veritable shrine of Nazi paraphernalia, so the context would be key. If there is a bunch of swastika littering the joint and the individual starts waxing poetic on the Third Reich, one could be in the midst of a supremacist. However, if there are a few knives (many without the swastika symbol) among many others, it could just be a history buff knife enthusiast. I know the late Lemmy of Motor Head wore German type uniforms (not necessarily swastika stuff) just because he thought they were cooler than other designs, and lots of other people are fascinated with the amazing quality of german tanks and aircraft designed during the war.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 1:17:37 GMT
Like most things involving humans, its complicated. I don't feel bad saying the uniforms Hugo Boss designed were badass but that doesn't mean I endorse the folks who wore them.
I actually thought about Lemmy.
Collecting whatever doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad person, but you shouldn't be surprised if someone asks why. And depending on your answer you maybe shouldn't be surprised by the response.
If I had a chance to touch one of the daggers that did in Julius Caesar, I don't think I could pass it up. There's an irrational "something" about an object that had a meaningful impact on the world.
When I visited the shrine of the 47 ronin, there was something remarkable about being a pane of glass away from some of their arms and armor. There's just something about being in the presence of real history even when I had no ancestral or cultural tie. They were artifacts of humanity that transcended my own person in a really interesting way. I couldn't approach them in a way someone more directly associated could, but there was a weight to them.
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seth
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Post by seth on Dec 9, 2019 18:01:47 GMT
"What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?"
I am more concerned with the character of those who held the swords. Therefore, if someone offered me the sword of Joshua Chamberlain, I would be honored to be its caretaker. I would reject the sword of Herman Goering. Even if you don't ascribe any supernatural properties to these swords, they are symbols of what their wielders stood for.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 18:02:58 GMT
Any sword type has done bad things. However, I think swords or symbols specifically tied to evil regimes within or just shy of living memory can be reasonably shunned. I would not be friends with a guy who displays or specifically collects Nazi daggers. What if he were Jewish and did so as to be reminded of what his people escaped? I would probably feel the same about swords used on my people. I'm not sure how big sabers ever were in Canada, however. Personally, I would prefer German WW1 stuff to WW2 stuff though. Still looks cool but has less of a genocide vibe to it
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 9, 2019 20:31:57 GMT
Any sword type has done bad things. However, I think swords or symbols specifically tied to evil regimes within or just shy of living memory can be reasonably shunned. I would not be friends with a guy who displays or specifically collects Nazi daggers. So that's basically what my point was. The Nazi era swords are tied *only* to the Nazis. The WW2 IJA/IJN Gunto are tied *only* to that regime. I don't care about katana or medieval swords or most other swords, those aren't usually tied to only one evil regime that killed innocents for no reason other than blatant racism. The civil war era sabre also was used in the hands of freed slaves and men who fought (whether their own personal goal or not) to end an abhorrent practice. To me, that's what the American sword represents. The Nazi era and WW2 Japanese swords don't have that history. I wouldn't own a Nazi arm band, I wouldn't own a Gunto.
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Post by howler on Dec 9, 2019 21:01:58 GMT
Any sword type has done bad things. However, I think swords or symbols specifically tied to evil regimes within or just shy of living memory can be reasonably shunned. I would not be friends with a guy who displays or specifically collects Nazi daggers. So that's basically what my point was. The Nazi era swords are tied *only* to the Nazis. The WW2 IJA/IJN Gunto are tied *only* to that regime. I don't care about katana or medieval swords or most other swords, those aren't usually tied to only one evil regime that killed innocents for no reason other than blatant racism. The civil war era sabre also was used in the hands of freed slaves and men who fought (whether their own personal goal or not) to end an abhorrent practice. To me, that's what the American sword represents. The Nazi era and WW2 Japanese swords don't have that history. I wouldn't own a Nazi arm band, I wouldn't own a Gunto. The Nazi arm band would seem much worse to me, as well as to the average person, but I'm sure there are individuals out there who may feel different if directly affected by evil hands wielding the Gunto. I believe Thulsa Doom (Conan The Barbarian) was right with his "hands that wield it" part regarding the riddle of steel. Guy walking down the street with a Nazi arm band...well...not much to figure out there unless it was a drunk kid on Halloween rocking the worst, most offensive costume possible.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 9, 2019 22:37:41 GMT
So that's basically what my point was. The Nazi era swords are tied *only* to the Nazis. The WW2 IJA/IJN Gunto are tied *only* to that regime. I don't care about katana or medieval swords or most other swords, those aren't usually tied to only one evil regime that killed innocents for no reason other than blatant racism. The civil war era sabre also was used in the hands of freed slaves and men who fought (whether their own personal goal or not) to end an abhorrent practice. To me, that's what the American sword represents. The Nazi era and WW2 Japanese swords don't have that history. I wouldn't own a Nazi arm band, I wouldn't own a Gunto. The Nazi arm band would seem much worse to me, as well as to the average person, but I'm sure there are individuals out there who may feel different if directly affected by evil hands wielding the Gunto. I believe Thulsa Doom (Conan The Barbarian) was right with his "hands that wield it" part regarding the riddle of steel. Guy walking down the street with a Nazi arm band...well...not much to figure out there unless it was a drunk kid on Halloween rocking the worst, most offensive costume possible. Why? They are both symbols of rank worn by members of regimes which commit a huge amount of horrible atrocities in their short lived life spans. The sword gets a pass because it's cool. Isn't that really what it comes down to?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:28:54 GMT
If an ancestral blade was put into IJA/IJN mounts, does it become evil forever or only when wearing those clothes?
When my Koa Isshin Mantetsu was taken out of the war mounts and put into buke zukuri koshirae did it become clean?
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 10, 2019 1:27:27 GMT
I wouldn't want a gunto either, but in the western world they are far less recognizable for what they are. I would assume someone in America who has a gunto just likes katana and could only afford a crappy one, rather than being a supporter of imperial Japan. But if I were Chinese I think I would react harshly to it.
There's also a distinct line between German stuff and Nazi stuff. Anything with Third Reich symbols on it is inexcusable to me. I think the example cited above of a Jew owning a Nazi dagger strains the imagination. I like the form of the Swiss dagger, but I would never own one with those symbols attached.
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