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Post by pvsampson on Dec 7, 2019 9:23:01 GMT
I was reading another thread where a poster stated he did not like gunto due to the association with Imperial Japan and their war crimes. I am not wanting to start drama,but am curious.
How does one know that a sabre,for example,they own has not been used for war crimes? Would this mean that the person owning the sword should remove it from their collection if they did discover it was used by a criminal?
What about Nihonto? Some are actually signed with the number of people the blade was tested on. Should this blade then be included in ones collection,knowing full well that it had killed so callously? Or what about any Nihonto from feudal times?
Would one that practices JSA need to consider the fact that the Japanese Imperial Army used the same techniques whilst committing crimes during wartime? Should that practice be ceased?
What about German military swords that could have been used during the second world war?
What about antiques that are in museums or private collections,how do we know that any given piece was not used to kill a child?
This has got me thinking about what some would own and what some would not. Please note that I mean no disrespect to the original poster of the statement but I am genuinely intrigued as to why weapons from one specific period of history would be considered off limits,so to say,than any other period. Ethics? Morals? They are weapons of war after all and that is why we are here.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 7, 2019 9:34:51 GMT
I think everybody has to decide for himself whether he doesn't want to own a antique sword that is related to war crimes, or could have been. Or even repros of such swords. I personally wouldn't get an antique gunto or katana/tachi (Toyotomi Korean invasion), or German WW stuff. Except German WW/Nazi stuff (my own people's dark history counts twice) I have no problems with repros. I know nearly every sword has been used for war crimes in history. US Cavalry sabers (my sweet tooth for saber repros), crusader swords, viking swords, katana, gunto, 30 year war swords, machetes... The only "clean" swords are modern tactical swords, huh?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 7, 2019 11:39:17 GMT
How far do you take this idea? As Andi said, every sword (gun, knife, etc) at some point has been used in a crime or in a war. Do you mean a known individual example that was definitively traced to a crime, or just a style that was used? The truth is, unless it's an artifact collected from the actual scene, there is no way to tell for sure.
Not all guntos were used in Nanking. The vast majority of them were carried around by some sad sack soldier on some remote outpost where nothing at all happened. Or are you talking about the IDEA of a gunto and what it was used for? Machetes were used in the Rwandan genocide- do we throw all of ours away because of that? And let's not even begin to talk about rocks and pointed sticks.
I think at the end of the day it's up to the individual to decide. Some people like the design of a specific weapon, others like to study the history behind it, and others like to collect the actual artifact itself. As for my opinion, if you collect swords, you are collecting weapons, and weapons are used to kill or injure other people. It's important to understand that concept first before deciding how much the idea of killing has gone to far for yourself.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 7, 2019 12:37:41 GMT
I think Andi and red have the right of it. I think I know what post you read and if it’s the same one that person likes Sabers (sp?). Some of them were used to kill “native Americans”. Not a criticism of that person or their tastes but like said above all style of swords and other weapons have killed/ murdered someone.
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Post by pellius on Dec 7, 2019 14:54:41 GMT
Interesting.
Since politics and religion are strictly prohibited here (I fully support that, btw), this is a topic that probably can’t be fully discussed here.
Within the boundaries of the (very reasonable) rules here, I can say for myself that the only weapons I categorically decline to possess, whether genuine or reproduction, are those specifically associated with Nazi Germany. That’s not because I think other historical weapons were used more responsibly or humanely, but simply because some folks still genuinely and explicitly promote Nazi doctrine and seek to implement it. I certainly do not, Possessing such paraphernalia might inadvertently communicate endorsement, or worse, allegiance.
At least where I live, no one is seriously seeking to resurrect Imperial Rome, Britain, France, Russia, Japan, etc.
Incidentally, I don’t include US historical swords in this analysis because I’m from the US. They are part of my personal heritage, and I’m directly involved in the political development of my home.
Just mtc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 17:24:52 GMT
A gun that retails for something like $350 was bid up to almost $140,000 because it was used in the killing of a child. The same gun with a different serial number could have been had for a literal fraction, but it wouldn't have been "that one".
For some people, there's some appeal to that kind of thing, so the emotional charge swings in both directions of repulsion or attraction.
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christain
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Post by christain on Dec 7, 2019 17:41:38 GMT
Weapons are collected by people because they ARE weapons and unique to a time in history, and also because they are usually unique to a particular ethnic/political/religious faction. Just because you have a particular piece in YOUR collection does NOT mean that YOU have any ties to that particular faction. That's just silly. Who knows? One day, a cult may form...thousands of people known as the 'Order of XXXXX' may rise up and start slaughtering people with Cold Steel axes and machetes. Would I be labeled as one of them? I own plenty. Am I a member of 'XXXXX' ? Just because I have their weapons? Even though they are just on display and I never let them leave my home---and I have never done a violent act ? If I found a Nazi dagger that I particularly liked the design of, I would already have it. I don't find any of them very attractive, so...I don't have one. End of rant.
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 7, 2019 20:09:39 GMT
I have considered a variety of responses on this matter, which I take most seriously, and will limit myself to saying that I find any ideologically driven tampering with history and its evidence in the form of artifacts or texts to be personally offensive. Forget the perps and you forget the victims.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 7, 2019 20:30:05 GMT
Not so many Canadian swords to collect...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 21:18:26 GMT
Not so many Canadian swords to collect... Pretty much. The saddest part about being Canadian. Swords were not that big here for our history unless we go back to when we were still part of Britain. Even my Canadian bayonet is basically just a British one As for me, I would enjoy owning something that was part of a war crime. I got a morbid curiosity bout such things, kind of like how I would enjoy to own the real necronimicon if it existed. Doesn't mean I support it or wish to have taken part of it, but I would like to own a Gunto one day
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Post by pvsampson on Dec 7, 2019 23:28:06 GMT
Good discussion guys. I was just mainly wondering why some would consider one part of history not acceptable but others ok. Honestly if my mother was still alive and knew I was practicing iaido she would disapprove. She hated the Japanese with a passion due to the treatment of one of her brothers during the second war,and because another brother fought them in New Guinea. But this does not mean that I should make my decisions on something that happened over 70 years ago as times have changed and well,the war is well and truly over.
I see on reddit people hating on Christians because of the Crusades ffs. Literally. I do not wish to bring religion into this because of the rules of course, but there are many issues with all martial history. Napoleonic wars,20th century world wars,Mongol invasions and even Vikings and Saxons. My thoughts are that any sword from any history is acceptable. Whether it is gunto,Aussie machete/bolo WWII issue,Chinese dao or if it has a swastika on it. Collecting martial weapons that have a specific purpose to kill means that there will be items that have killed if one collects antiques and the history is unknown as to persons killed. As mentioned not all gunto were used in a combat situation,maybe never even drawn except for practice and maintenance.Not all swords have killed for that matter. Historical weapons are exactly that. Historical. My opinion is to leave the past where it was but remember it of course. But why get too hung up on the fact that "this style was used by this army so I will never use/own because they did these things many,many years ago in a time of war" ? That is my opinion. Your thoughts may vary of course and by no means will there be disdain from me.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Dec 7, 2019 23:40:37 GMT
Weapons commit no crimes, wehrmacht daggers are just German, and SS are just swiss holbein, no more!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 7, 2019 23:42:09 GMT
My thoughts exactly. Everything that was made to be a weapon at one time was used to kill somebody for whatever reasons. It's not the fact of the killing that seems to bother some people, but rather a philosophical argument over WHY the killing and counter killings happened.
This is my final thought on the matter. Swords are tools of soldiers. And soldiers don't get to pick the war they fight- to a soldier one war is a good as the next. Civilians choose when wars start and stop. If war making was left to the soldiers to decide, then we would actually achieve world peace.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 0:09:23 GMT
Weapons commit no crimes, wehrmacht daggers are just German, and SS are just swiss holbein, no more! The swastika has a 7000 year history across multiple cultures, a history that was erased/replaced over the course of a couple of decades in the mid twentieth century. Inanimate objects can be powerful symbols.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 8, 2019 0:36:55 GMT
I think this is an issue with a lot of different angles to consider. Where you're from, when you were born, what your local education facilities teach or taught at your time of schooling, what your government allows you to see or not see, familial beliefs and teachings, religious leanings and your own personal opinions.
For example, the majority of first world countries know about the Holocaust and the worst actions committed by members of the Nazi party and German military. You can't avoid it. It's taught in school and there's a movie made about it every ten minutes. I love the design of daggers used by the German military, but if you throw some Nazi bling on it I all of a sudden want to kick it's teeth in, hahaha.
Conversely, the atrocities committed by the Japanese are much less reported on. They did a much better job of keeping a lid on what they did, and completely banished it from their own history for a long time, refusing to teach it or even acknowledge them. As a result the Japanese populous was largely unaware of their own military's doings. I learned about Pearl Harbor, Midway and a few other mostly navel occurrences, but nothing really about any other aspects of the Pacific theater and the actions of the Japanese. I was in my late teens/early twenties when I read The Rape of Nanking. Probably the most horrific book I've ever read, made worse in that it's a factual account of atrocities committed by real people on real people and presented in a very black and white manner. I didn't learn about Unit 731 until a year or two ago. Read those and a splatter-punk Edward Lee novel seems truly pathetic in contrast. However, since I wasn't steeped in it growing up as I was in Nazi horror so I forget half the time that the Gunto is one of the most hated symbols of war and atrocity in Asia, for very good reason. When I see one I just see a cool mishmash of Western and Eastern sword design.
And bayonets? Good God Almighty! Every country on earth that ever used them has committed endless horrors with bayonets. Bayonets are featured heavily in The Rape of Nanking, used in ways that make the beheading contests seem almost tame. I don't think anybody hates or blames them, though. Seems like they get a pass for the most part.
In the end I don't think this is an issue that has a universally right or wrong answer to it. Blades and weapons of any kind are tools, and it's the uses that wielder put them to that are good or bad. That being said, I can understand why certain designs and symbols added to them can evoke extremely powerful reactions.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 8, 2019 1:39:13 GMT
With things like medieval sword and sabre, you can certainly go ahead and argue that since they were used in atrocities as well - that specific person who likes sabres and not gunto should also not like those types of swords. I would like to point out a few things, the first of which being a nit - pick. If you are going to talk about atrocities commit with a sabre, there are better ones to choose than American sabres. Belgian, English, Cossack sabres. I'm not studied in the atrocities of the Indian wars but in what I have read it seems the rifle/musket and pistol was more common. By magnitudes actually. I haven't read any atrocities where officers and troopers killed natives (and why put native Americans in quotes, they are the native people) with the sabre in mass killing. Perhaps Zenhydra or Edelweiss can chime in there.
Compare and contrast to the WW2 era Gunto. Used by officers to kill POWs, civilians, probably far more than it was used to defend and take life in the pursuit of war unless I am vastly overestimating the effect small arms and repeating rifles had on the swords role in warfare.
The sabre, arming sword, etc; all used for actual war more than war crimes. Sure more guntos were worn than used, but that's true for every weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 3:09:44 GMT
This topic is one of the reasons I have not particpated much in the last year or so. I was reseaching swords of kings as a theme of my medieval collection. My reseach lead me to believe most Kings were naricissistic and dishonorable to say the least. So I put that aside...... or maybe I could change the theme to something like "Swords of the Defenders". Therefore, I decided to research specific types of katanas. My research led me to the samurai practice of beheading others in combat and taking the head to a leader for money not honor....maybe I could focus on versions before or after the "beheading for bucks" era. I like sabers but would I ever own a 1860s era U.S. calvary sword? For a college term paper on warfare tactics I did decades ago, I read an actual journal of a U.S. soldier from the "Indian Wars" of that time period. I had to wear white gloves to hold and read the pages. This soldier described in detail how soldiers on horseback would ride along running women holding babies. These soldiers would swing their sabers into the backs of the women and into the bodies of the babies. The soldier that witnessed these events said this was not war, this was murder of unarmed people at their homes. For many native people the U.S. Calvery saber is a symbol of evil. Will I own one? NEVER. A light saber - YES. .....on a lighter note.....Merry Christmas everyone and may all your sword dreams come true! Remember, you will find favor with Crom if you donate your time, money, effort, new coats, new shoes and of course new toys to children in need this holiday season .... including your own! LOL!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 8, 2019 3:18:48 GMT
I think Andi and red have the right of it. I think I know what post you read and if it’s the same one that person likes Sabers (sp?). Some of them were used to kill “native Americans”. Not a criticism of that person or their tastes but like said above all style of swords and other weapons have killed/ murdered someone. It's not about that the style might have been used just to kill or to murder - but the Shin Gunto only existed in service for a very short period of time and was used exclusively by a government that sanctioned the mass murder of civilians, and the torture and executions of a huge number of people.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 8, 2019 3:20:10 GMT
This topic is one of the reasons I have not particpated much in the last year or so. I was reseaching swords of kings as a theme of my medieval collection. My reseach lead me to believe most Kings were naricissistic and dishonorable to say the least. So I put that aside. I decided to research specific types of katanas. My research led me to the samurai practice of beheading others in combat and taking the head to a leader for money not honor. I like sabers but would I ever own a 1860s era U.S. calvary sword? For a college term paper on warfare tactics I did decades ago, I read an actual journal of a U.S. soldier from the "Indian Wars" of that time period. I had to wear white gloves to hold and read the pages. This soldier described in detail how soldiers on horseback would ride along running women holding babies. The soldier would swing his sabed into the backs of the women and into the bodies of the babies. The soldier that witnessed these events said this was not war, this was murder of unarmed people at their homes. For many native people the U.S. Calvery saber is a symbol of evil. Will I own one? Never. Do you remember the name of the journal?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 4:37:38 GMT
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