Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 10, 2018 23:00:44 GMT
A thought just hit me, so at the moment it is nothing but a concept, or a speculation. Feel free to discuss it and share your own perspective
I think one of the reasons Katana were originally appealing to the masses, starting at some 30 years ago or so, is that its simplicity yet effectiveness.
It is no secret that a Katana would do poorly against a longsword in a one on one duel, or even on a battle field. The Katana just lacks the features needed to match the longsword, both in defensive offensive usages/versatility.
But I don't think the reason it is a great sword isn't because some knight vs samurai stuff. History isn't all that is cool about swords, and neither is who is the strongest fighter. I, for one, am more interested in the sword as a tool than a symbol from history.
When against a longsword in an open area, the Katanas shorter length would be a huge disadvantage. But in a hallway or small room, the shorter blade, easily maneuvered by the long handle, which also can generate a lot of torque, it would feel like a pretty good weapon against a modern day home invader. The thick blade would have less flex when stopping a bat, even if the blade bent a bit. The lack of cross guard isn't likely to get caught on anything, and its overall slim profile would be quite convenient. Top it all off? Many people pointed out how a katana lends itself well to cuts for beginners, more so than a lot of more flexible, thinner and wider blades tend to. This could mean everything for the average guy.
I am sure many of you could do better in a hallway with your Longsword than I could do with a Katana. I ain't here to claim its a better sword. I am just here to say, how in our age of minimalism and practicality, it seems like a better option for the average person when it comes to defense. It offers more to the untrained person in a house, than the more advanced longsword, which doesn't shine in the hands of a beginner.
Remember, its not about having the best weapon. Its about having one at all, and having one you know how to use. A desert eagle isn't much in the hands of a noob.
Also, if someone took the time to learn kendo, it would work well against most melee fighters I would think, just for the speed and aggression many people put into it
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Post by Verity on Dec 10, 2018 23:12:38 GMT
You actually hit the nail on the head.
As the Nanbokucho period gave way to Muromachi and more battle saw use IN urban areas or homes, the length of blades became shorter. Even getting very short and moving to the two handed style using shorter handled uchigatana for a time.
Then as warring began to fade entirely and the samurai became a stagnant aristocrat the blades became more gaudy and ornamental with less concern for function. This is where the edo period opulence and wild hamon appear.
(Being Japanese swords. Caveat emptor: exceptions for everything exist).
So your logic is sound. It is precisely why Muromachi blades are shorter in general than Nanbokucho.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 10, 2018 23:42:18 GMT
Please mind my comment only pertains to the Katana being popular within modern western culture, particularly in film and pop culture.
I think you have an interesting point, but I think it has more to do with the cultural perception of Japanese and Asian martial traditions in the west, and the fact that many may have only had their perception of the sword through films or games, where the European swords are often represented as clunky, ugly, and chunky, while the Japanese katana is represented as a swift, quick, sharp, elegant weapon for a dignified warrior. The now exaggerated and oft - memed mythos of the katana cutting through gun barrels and being 100 times better than European counterparts were once not seen as so silly and not as exaggerated, and I remember reading when I was about 12 about how a USGI in WW2 had the barrel of his M1 Carbine cut off by a Japanese officer with a katana, something presented as fact at the time.
As well as this, many medieval themed films just fall short when compared to Japanese films featuring swords. The swords move slowly or you can see actors putting what looks like all their strength into the blow, than having their body carry into the strike, or such things as Game of Thrones having the actors grunt and moan and yell when fighting, while performing an action that looks similar to swinging a crowbar half of the time. Looking for clips on YouTube, I can't find any Japanese sword fight scene that looks slow. They stop a lot, but after a pass, making a very artistic stop/start/stop/start sort of flow. Meanwhile the trope for western sword fighting is hit sword/hit sword/hit sword/hit sword/hit sword/stop/banter/pant/banter/yell/repeat.
A want of the exotic, and a misrepresentation of European swordsmanship is I think to blame more than the general audience a sword may appeal to wanting a utilitarian weapon.
It is also just a beautiful piece of art when done right, the simple lines flowing through the piece, with the hamon line adding simple decor to the otherwise undecorated blade. You can see this in some Dutch art as well, such as the painting by Harmen Steenwyck titled 'Still Life: An Allegory of the Vanities of Human Life'. It shows a katana like sword on a table, fitting in well where a more complex hilted sword of the time from Europe might take up too much of the focus and space.
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Ouroboros
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Imperial, Mysterious In Amorous Array
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Post by Ouroboros on Dec 10, 2018 23:47:40 GMT
I'll toss an added edge to your theory and that is the ease of aquisition of what someone uneducated in blades (euro vs Japanese vs other) might consider to be pa "proper weapon".
For most folks, grabbing a mall-sourced 440 stainless wire brushed Kat vs a carbon steel longsword is simply a matter of "I know Knives etc (insert store name here) carries a 100$ katana (shaped object) that is sharp but the longsword (shaped object) they carry are dull. My sword will be sharp and it's style eloquent for I am sharp and eloquent.!"
A longsword wielded halfsword style could be a very effective weapon in corridors and small rooms 😎
When I get around to penning my opus on "mall ninjary" there's gonna be a chapter covering the rise of 440 stainless defender blades and other theories. (Edit.. .having read Jordan comment I can't agree more that the film and cultural perception of the katana as an "elite and special weapon" brings all kind of wallhanger into the public eye and floods the playing field, stacking the deck against sabres)
😉 Ouro
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 0:09:54 GMT
Ouro: For sure, but when they buy a Katana, in their minds, its not going to be different from the ones seen in movies, with an infinitely sharp edge haha. I agree longswords are better when you know how to use them, but what beginner would half sword. "I will cut my hand!".
Jordan: Well, definitely. That is definitely the real answer. I am not sure why, but I imagined it through the eyes of someone who has an idea how to defend themselves, but never used a sword, not so much through the eyes of a japanese obsessed fanatic. I guess I am seeing it from someone who sees it from a martial perspective, not someone who wants to emulate a tv character, like say when you talk to an uneducated army dude (with no knowledge of katanas cutting through barrels for bullets myths) but thinks its the best from a martial perspective. An educated fighter, but uneducated swordsman
Verity: Thanks for sharing that. I never knew that, but I too was thinking how my Katana being shorter would be more helpful indoors
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 0:12:27 GMT
By the way, when I say noob, I mean sword noob. Not a media fanatic . This person is likely somewhat capable. You see these guys a lot. Capable, strong, can defend themselves, but just assumes Katana to be the best. I am saying, that for them without training, it is the best
This doesn't mean I prefer them. I prefer sabers, or a sword and buckler if I can have it
*Edit* I thought I should mention that I don't mean to be a contrarian. I just feel I didn't word myself right earlier, so I had to specify what I meant
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 11, 2018 1:54:05 GMT
Good points, exactly what I think about the situational/contextual advantages/disadvantages of the weapon. It's really good for close quarters combat, and as Verity mentioned blades matched the context. For personal defense and combat in a more urban setting, katana have lots of perks as easy to carry and being highly maneuverable. A longer blade length (say 32-34 in.) would be useful for battlefield use, although at the same shorter lengths are fine for a battlefield weapon depending on application. I really argue that dual wielding really mitigates the length/reach disadvantage in a number of ways (so much so that I argue Japanese swords are optimal when used in pairs) and shorter swords are often easier to manage. On the other hand, longswords are just such absurdly useful weapons that it's hard to argue against them, although wielding a 36 in. longsword in close quarters won't be as advantageous as other weapons, especially compared to something like that beauty you named the Danu.
Like Jordan mentioned, the hype around katana seems to be largely be a cultural thing. They look cool at rest and in motion, have quite the reputation for performance and have tons of awesome movies and media featuring them. I mean, Toshiro Mifune could single handedly make anyone interested in a katana as a weapon (or maybe an odachi if Seven Samurai is the movie being viewed).
But aside from media influence, it is an interesting question to ponder if there is something psychlogical about the design or application of a katana which makes it appealing. Like if there are aesthetic or symmetrical properties which our visual processing systems appreciate on a mechanistic level which amplifies conscious appreciation. That's an interesting point to consider now that I think of it
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 11, 2018 2:10:34 GMT
For me the appeal to katana is how nice they look, and the martial heritage. That said, I don't own a katana. I need to get one that looks as nice as my KC Korean. That's really the only reason I own it. It's a beautiful sword, elegant and slim but deadly and quick. A very nice show of duality while my European sabres look elegant, but perhaps not artistically so in the same way the KC does.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 3:00:43 GMT
Zabazagabo: I am happy to see others agree with me. I put a lot of thought into this one. With all the constant bash the katana gets in sword communities, it was becoming hard to justify, but I knew there were just reasons I loved it. I see my different swords as different knives in my kitchen, for different tools. Even an accusharp made edge (a more sawtoothy one, I just feel accusharp edges are particularly good at this) has a bread knife like effect on clothing, which based on Skalls gambeson tests, has HUGE merits in that context.
For me, the Katana is just a very specific knife to use in a specific context. Like a smallsword.
Jordan: Get the Kris Cutlery 26a. Thats the greatest Katana i have ever owned
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 3:26:42 GMT
Let's consider the context. Because yes. That DOES matter.
In essence the katana began as the tachi which was predominantly the weapon of a mounted samurai (presuming he was not using a yari or umi bow from horseback).
The tachi (and subsequently katana) is essentially a saber. Meant for sweeping cuts. on foot both hands could he used and it was essentially a messer type weapon.
As battlefield warfare became less the norm and instead feudal wars between clans during the warring states period, the blades got shorter to handle indoor fighting and urban settings more than an open field from horseback.
This is why you see the giant Nanbokucho tachi of old give way to the more delicate uchigatana.
Now let's consider the context of why the saber like design. Simple: no full steel plate. Japanese used lamelier type armor for most of the period with banded plates bound with silk. (Assuming ANY armor was worn.)
You did not see the evolution of longswords and pointy tips and quite the rapid adaptation you did in Europe because the arms race of arms and armour did not exist in Japan to the same degree.
People always comment on this but how is that really any different than the scimitar of the Middle East? It remained a saber like weapon for pretty much the duration...
context is key.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 11, 2018 3:34:39 GMT
Zabazagabo: I am happy to see others agree with me. I put a lot of thought into this one. With all the constant bash the katana gets in sword communities, it was becoming hard to justify, but I knew there were just reasons I loved it. I see my different swords as different knives in my kitchen, for different tools. Even an accusharp made edge (a more sawtoothy one, I just feel accusharp edges are particularly good at this) has a bread knife like effect on clothing, which based on Skalls gambeson tests, has HUGE merits in that context. For me, the Katana is just a very specific knife to use in a specific context. Like a smallsword. Jordan: Get the Kris Cutlery 26a. Thats the greatest Katana i have ever owned It's kind of become a fad to bash katana, hasn't it? Maybe if katana had pommel projectiles youtubers would eat them up. And I think your knife analogy is perfect: it really just depends on what you need the blade to do. The mention of the sawtooth edge against gambeson makes me wonder what a sawtooth sword would do to armor like that...maybe there's merits to a chipped sword after all? Haha
I really need to try out a KC blade, the 26 looks great, the Korean blade Jordan reviewed looks perfect as a utilitarian sword, but I really want that jian they recently got back in stock. That sword just looks awesome.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 11, 2018 3:37:30 GMT
Let's consider the context. Because yes. That DOES matter. In essence the katana began as the tachi which was predominantly the weapon of a mounted samurai (presuming he was not using a yari or umi bow from horseback). The tachi (and subsequently katana) is essentially a saber. Meant for sweeping cuts. on foot both hands could he used and it was essentially a messer type weapon. As battlefield warfare became less the norm and instead feudal wars between clans during the warring states period, the blades got shorter to handle indoor fighting and urban settings more than an open field from horseback. This is why you see the giant Nanbokucho tachi of old give way to the more delicate uchigatana. Now let's consider the context of why the saber like design. Simple: no full steel plate. Japanese used lamelier type armor for most of the period with banded plates bound with silk. (Assuming ANY armor was worn.) You did not see the evolution of longswords and pointy tips and quite the rapid adaptation you did in Europe because the arms race of arms and armour did not exist in Japan to the same degree. People always comment on this but how is that really any different than the scimitar of the Middle East? It remained a saber like weapon for pretty much the duration... context is key. I wish this post could just be copy and pasted into every future discussion about katana v. etc. anywhere on the internet for all time. So succinctly and perfectly put.
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 3:38:25 GMT
Zabazagabo: I am happy to see others agree with me. I put a lot of thought into this one. With all the constant bash the katana gets in sword communities, it was becoming hard to justify, but I knew there were just reasons I loved it. I see my different swords as different knives in my kitchen, for different tools. Even an accusharp made edge (a more sawtoothy one, I just feel accusharp edges are particularly good at this) has a bread knife like effect on clothing, which based on Skalls gambeson tests, has HUGE merits in that context. For me, the Katana is just a very specific knife to use in a specific context. Like a smallsword. Jordan: Get the Kris Cutlery 26a. Thats the greatest Katana i have ever owned It's kind of become a fad to bash katana, hasn't it? Maybe if katana had pommel projectiles youtubers would eat them up. And I think your knife analogy is perfect: it really just depends on what you need the blade to do. The mention of the sawtooth edge against gambeson makes me wonder what a sawtooth sword would do to armor like that...maybe there's merits to a chipped sword after all? Haha
I really need to try out a KC blade, the 26 looks great, the Korean blade Jordan reviewed looks perfect as a utilitarian sword, but I really want that jian they recently got back in stock. That sword just looks awesome.
I never did get the zealot thing either way. Katana is super steel! Katana is junk! Or was that Chevy over Ford? Or 9mm over .45 or .40? Or Nikon vs Canon? See my point? People find something to be a zealot about in every community. I just never did see the point. The wisest man uses the most appropriate tool for the situation. 😏
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 11, 2018 3:45:29 GMT
It's kind of become a fad to bash katana, hasn't it? Maybe if katana had pommel projectiles youtubers would eat them up. And I think your knife analogy is perfect: it really just depends on what you need the blade to do. The mention of the sawtooth edge against gambeson makes me wonder what a sawtooth sword would do to armor like that...maybe there's merits to a chipped sword after all? Haha
I really need to try out a KC blade, the 26 looks great, the Korean blade Jordan reviewed looks perfect as a utilitarian sword, but I really want that jian they recently got back in stock. That sword just looks awesome.
I never did get the zealot thing either way. Katana is super steel! Katana is junk! Or was that Chevy over Ford? Or 9mm over .45 or .40? Or Nikon vs Canon? See my point? People find something to be a zealot about in every community. I just never did see the point. The wisest man uses the most appropriate tool for the situation. 😏 Dichotomies and oppositional framing tend to be a staple of human cognition, I think our brains are just naturally designed to seek out contrast and base our understand of the world as such. Kind of like how with ye olde Robbers cave experiment kids at a summer camp developed a tribal mentality and became super competitive against each other. I think its one of those 'good most of the time, sometimes really, really bad' parts of brain behavior.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 4:02:45 GMT
I need a moment before responding after seeing that BBC story... That is just a bit much
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 4:05:41 GMT
Cutting them? No no no no....
Everyone knows you're not supposed to cut asteroids with swords. You're supposed to MAKE swords out of them....
Then you have a magical meteor sword!
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 4:06:26 GMT
Let's consider the context. Because yes. That DOES matter. In essence the katana began as the tachi which was predominantly the weapon of a mounted samurai (presuming he was not using a yari or umi bow from horseback). The tachi (and subsequently katana) is essentially a saber. Meant for sweeping cuts. on foot both hands could he used and it was essentially a messer type weapon. As battlefield warfare became less the norm and instead feudal wars between clans during the warring states period, the blades got shorter to handle indoor fighting and urban settings more than an open field from horseback. This is why you see the giant Nanbokucho tachi of old give way to the more delicate uchigatana. Now let's consider the context of why the saber like design. Simple: no full steel plate. Japanese used lamelier type armor for most of the period with banded plates bound with silk. (Assuming ANY armor was worn.) You did not see the evolution of longswords and pointy tips and quite the rapid adaptation you did in Europe because the arms race of arms and armour did not exist in Japan to the same degree. People always comment on this but how is that really any different than the scimitar of the Middle East? It remained a saber like weapon for pretty much the duration... context is key. Sh*t man... I had to read it a few times before I completely was able to handle the weight of that information. Excellent points. This needs to be posted everywhere. You met my musing with a heavy hitting piece of information I never hear heard anywhere, and I feel not enough people know about. You both make excellent points about the bashing though. It really is another my team vs your team. Herd mentality I guess
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 4:13:58 GMT
Sh*t man... I had to read it a few times before I completely was able to handle the weight of that information. Excellent points. This needs to be posted everywhere. You met my musing with a heavy hitting piece of information I never hear heard anywhere, and I feel not enough people know about. You both make excellent points about the bashing though. It really is another my team vs your team. Herd mentality I guess Well, your intuitive opening thought of "katana would be good indoors" is very much historically true. Just thought I'd give a crash course on how the design came about and how it evolved to just that. The "katana" design as it is known today is essentially a two handed saber for sweeping cuts, designed for urban or residential settings vs an open battle field and designed typically for an unarmored opponent. People need to stop comparing it to a longsword meant to oppose anything from lightly to heavily armored foes on an open battlefield and more liken it to the rapier of the rennaissance or the dueling small sword. Since contextually that is more its relative than the medieval longsword. The "constantly worn sidearm" of the gentleman. In Europe that was the renaissance and rapier/gauche. Or the smallsword later on. While longswords were used in duels it was mainly a battlefield weapon. The Japanese did not have "one size fits all" weapons really. They had massive nodachi which sort of filled the same role as the flamberge, zweihandr or great sword. The tachi/katana was basically the cavalry saber or arming sword from horseback. And on foot MAYBE messer equivalent but usually it's main use was in duels. Samurai on horseback were usually also using polearms or bows. Not that different really from Europe. Remember the longsword came about really because of plate... shields were not needed and two handed longswords came in because of the advancing armor.... Japan never had that... so... they skipped the niche that the longsword filled.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 4:46:31 GMT
Man those are also some excellent points. IF someone were to say Rapier vs Katana, there was a story I heard about it, where they rapier was the primary winner till the Japanese developed longer, lighter Katana. Both an example of innovation from an arms race, and what upgrades were necessary to make them more matched.
But you know... It explains why I love me sabers so much. Despite that I hate horses
I should also add that I don't think a beginner would do best against another swordsman with a Katana. But against an actual person who is likely to attack them (in this day and age, a machete or bat is more likely), I still think they would far better with a katana. To anyone who might think "but hey. Wouldn't a beginner do better with the extra reach of a longsword? I dont think a beginner with a katana would beat a beginner with a longsword".
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 4:53:59 GMT
Man those are also some excellent points. IF someone were to say Rapier vs Katana, there was a story I heard about it, where they rapier was the primary winner till the Japanese developed longer, lighter Katana. Both an example of innovation from an arms race, and what upgrades were necessary to make them more matched. But you know... It explains why I love me sabers so much. Despite that I hate horses I should also add that I don't think a beginner would do best against another swordsman with a Katana. But against an actual person who is likely to attack them (in this day and age, a machete or bat is more likely), I still think they would far better with a katana. To anyone who might think "but hey. Wouldn't a beginner do better with the extra reach of a longsword? I dont think a beginner with a katana would beat a beginner with a longsword". I would agree. A longsword is actually not as intuitive given the two edges and generally a thumb sideways type grip (at least that is how I've studied in the disciplines I have)... you almost hold a longsword sideways in the guards to gain full advantage of the guard to protect and to take advantage of both blade edges. Makes sense when you know this but not intuitive upon first picking up a longsword. And Hollywood has NOT helped this matter. A katana seems more intuitive given the single edge and the grip. So I would agree. In trained hands and unconfined space the longsword is superior. In untrained hands against a thug. The katana might be better. I dunno. Also a minor and debatable point: the curved edge of a saber or katana lends itself easier to cutting than the oblique entry angle needed on a straight edged weapon. This is academically debatable however
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