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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 11, 2018 5:44:32 GMT
Zabazagabo: I am happy to see others agree with me. I put a lot of thought into this one. With all the constant bash the katana gets in sword communities, it was becoming hard to justify, but I knew there were just reasons I loved it. I see my different swords as different knives in my kitchen, for different tools. Even an accusharp made edge (a more sawtoothy one, I just feel accusharp edges are particularly good at this) has a bread knife like effect on clothing, which based on Skalls gambeson tests, has HUGE merits in that context. For me, the Katana is just a very specific knife to use in a specific context. Like a smallsword. Jordan: Get the Kris Cutlery 26a. Thats the greatest Katana i have ever owned I can't remember the name, but a British officer in the 19th C claimed that a edge just slightly serrated, more rough than fine was the best edge for combat. I think Hutton, but know in the back of my mind that it was not Hutton. Hodson? It was in a Matt Easton video.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 11, 2018 17:19:44 GMT
I agree that it's mostly related to western adoration of eastern martial arts, starting in the 70's. I grew up unaware that there even were martial arts systems outside the far east. So the belief was that the Japanese in particular had a radical way of using swords based on a special set of living systems. At the same time, medieval swordplay had long been derided as crude hacking with blunt weapons with the intention of taking hostages. The rediscovery of period fight books and a closer look at the surviving weapons have exploded this idea, of course. But most people only have a vague idea of such things. Therefore, when most people in the modern world (west and east alike) think about advanced swordplay, they think of the katana and maybe rapier.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2018 19:53:18 GMT
A thought just hit me, so at the moment it is nothing but a concept, or a speculation. Feel free to discuss it and share your own perspective I think one of the reasons Katana were originally appealing to the masses, starting at some 30 years ago or so, is that its simplicity yet effectiveness. It is no secret that a Katana would do poorly against a longsword in a one on one duel, or even on a battle field. The Katana just lacks the features needed to match the longsword, both in defensive offensive usages/versatility. But I don't think the reason it is a great sword isn't because some knight vs samurai stuff. History isn't all that is cool about swords, and neither is who is the strongest fighter. I, for one, am more interested in the sword as a tool than a symbol from history. When against a longsword in an open area, the Katanas shorter length would be a huge disadvantage. But in a hallway or small room, the shorter blade, easily maneuvered by the long handle, which also can generate a lot of torque, it would feel like a pretty good weapon against a modern day home invader. The thick blade would have less flex when stopping a bat, even if the blade bent a bit. The lack of cross guard isn't likely to get caught on anything, and its overall slim profile would be quite convenient. Top it all off? Many people pointed out how a katana lends itself well to cuts for beginners, more so than a lot of more flexible, thinner and wider blades tend to. This could mean everything for the average guy. I am sure many of you could do better in a hallway with your Longsword than I could do with a Katana. I ain't here to claim its a better sword. I am just here to say, how in our age of minimalism and practicality, it seems like a better option for the average person when it comes to defense. It offers more to the untrained person in a house, than the more advanced longsword, which doesn't shine in the hands of a beginner. Remember, its not about having the best weapon. Its about having one at all, and having one you know how to use. A desert eagle isn't much in the hands of a noob. Also, if someone took the time to learn kendo, it would work well against most melee fighters I would think, just for the speed and aggression many people put into it I think like you do, in that though I've talked about how good a sidearm the longsword is against other swords in an open space, it is a katana (even better, a ko-katana) that lurks under my bed due to the reasons you mentioned.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 11, 2018 20:16:35 GMT
This talk about a sword optimized for urban use has me wondering how much mass you can remove from a katana blade and still have it functioning like a katana. If one uses a single, through-hardened steel, how thin can the blade practically be and retain a pentagonal cross-section (I am aware there are other traditional katana blade forms)? How light and swift can one make a katana using modern materials before the diminished mass becomes detrimental to the swords function?
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Post by Verity on Dec 11, 2018 20:34:27 GMT
This talk about a sword optimized for urban use has me wondering how much mass you can remove from a katana blade and still have it functioning like a katana. If one uses a single, through-hardened steel, how thin can the blade practically be and retain a pentagonal cross-section (I am aware there are other traditional katana blade forms)? How light and swift can one make a katana using modern materials before the diminished mass becomes detrimental to the swords function? you can prob get it pretty thin and down to longsword thicknesses (5-6mm at the Manchi, 4mm at the kissaki) relatively easily I would think. The structure would still remain relatively stiff due to the cross section. Dunno. I may have to try to make one like that... 🤔
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 22:14:35 GMT
This talk about a sword optimized for urban use has me wondering how much mass you can remove from a katana blade and still have it functioning like a katana. If one uses a single, through-hardened steel, how thin can the blade practically be and retain a pentagonal cross-section (I am aware there are other traditional katana blade forms)? How light and swift can one make a katana using modern materials before the diminished mass becomes detrimental to the swords function? Kris cutlery already has ya covered. Their 29A is super thin. It's a sword that is easily wielded in one hand without being more sluggish than the average one handed sword Of course its DH, but the sword would have you guessing what it would feel like. I always wish it was TH
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 11, 2018 22:16:23 GMT
A thought just hit me, so at the moment it is nothing but a concept, or a speculation. Feel free to discuss it and share your own perspective I think one of the reasons Katana were originally appealing to the masses, starting at some 30 years ago or so, is that its simplicity yet effectiveness. It is no secret that a Katana would do poorly against a longsword in a one on one duel, or even on a battle field. The Katana just lacks the features needed to match the longsword, both in defensive offensive usages/versatility. But I don't think the reason it is a great sword isn't because some knight vs samurai stuff. History isn't all that is cool about swords, and neither is who is the strongest fighter. I, for one, am more interested in the sword as a tool than a symbol from history. When against a longsword in an open area, the Katanas shorter length would be a huge disadvantage. But in a hallway or small room, the shorter blade, easily maneuvered by the long handle, which also can generate a lot of torque, it would feel like a pretty good weapon against a modern day home invader. The thick blade would have less flex when stopping a bat, even if the blade bent a bit. The lack of cross guard isn't likely to get caught on anything, and its overall slim profile would be quite convenient. Top it all off? Many people pointed out how a katana lends itself well to cuts for beginners, more so than a lot of more flexible, thinner and wider blades tend to. This could mean everything for the average guy. I am sure many of you could do better in a hallway with your Longsword than I could do with a Katana. I ain't here to claim its a better sword. I am just here to say, how in our age of minimalism and practicality, it seems like a better option for the average person when it comes to defense. It offers more to the untrained person in a house, than the more advanced longsword, which doesn't shine in the hands of a beginner. Remember, its not about having the best weapon. Its about having one at all, and having one you know how to use. A desert eagle isn't much in the hands of a noob. Also, if someone took the time to learn kendo, it would work well against most melee fighters I would think, just for the speed and aggression many people put into it I think like you do, in that though I've talked about how good a sidearm the longsword is against other swords in an open space, it is a katana (even better, a ko-katana) that lurks under my bed due to the reasons you mentioned. You always had an intuitive grasp on my concepts of defense haha. It was you who likened my tactics to a trap door spider. A great nick name if I do say so myself
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2018 22:29:33 GMT
I think like you do, in that though I've talked about how good a sidearm the longsword is against other swords in an open space, it is a katana (even better, a ko-katana) that lurks under my bed due to the reasons you mentioned. You always had an intuitive grasp on my concepts of defense haha. It was you who likened my tactics to a trap door spider. A great nick name if I do say so myself Great minds think alike...TRAP.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 12, 2018 0:21:30 GMT
You always had an intuitive grasp on my concepts of defense haha. It was you who likened my tactics to a trap door spider. A great nick name if I do say so myself Great minds think alike...TRAP. I wanna test this, but I feel like one could do montonte indoors with a ko-katana
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JakeH
Member
[k4r]
Posts: 77
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Post by JakeH on Dec 12, 2018 1:57:12 GMT
I can't remember the name, but a British officer in the 19th C claimed that a edge just slightly serrated, more rough than fine was the best edge for combat. I think Hutton, but know in the back of my mind that it was not Hutton. Hodson? It was in a Matt Easton video. Hi Jordan, that was definitely Hutton writing in "The Cavalry Swordsman" books.google.ca/books?pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22alfred+hutton%22+sharpen+sword+files&sig=Aa1k_JqPrq_YlmXJDSwwwjO9irY&id=CiBXAAAAcAAJ&ots=lLTGZIibur&output=text"The edge best suited to our purpose is one of a slightly serrated nature, put on with a fine steel file—the file being applied diagonally from hilt to point; the effect of such an application of the file will be to form a fairly keen edge, composed of a set of tiny sawlike teeth, set slightly backwards from point to hilt, like the teeth in a shark's mouth. In this manner the soldier might, on emergency, sharpen his sword well himself, and might certainly repair it" Jake
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 12, 2018 2:06:30 GMT
I can't remember the name, but a British officer in the 19th C claimed that a edge just slightly serrated, more rough than fine was the best edge for combat. I think Hutton, but know in the back of my mind that it was not Hutton. Hodson? It was in a Matt Easton video. Hi Jordan, that was definitely Hutton writing in "The Cavalry Swordsman" books.google.ca/books?pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22alfred+hutton%22+sharpen+sword+files&sig=Aa1k_JqPrq_YlmXJDSwwwjO9irY&id=CiBXAAAAcAAJ&ots=lLTGZIibur&output=text"The edge best suited to our purpose is one of a slightly serrated nature, put on with a fine steel file—the file being applied diagonally from hilt to point; the effect of such an application of the file will be to form a fairly keen edge, composed of a set of tiny sawlike teeth, set slightly backwards from point to hilt, like the teeth in a shark's mouth. In this manner the soldier might, on emergency, sharpen his sword well himself, and might certainly repair it" Jake Ahhh. I had thought it earlier than Hutton, but good to know the name and source behind it.
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Post by Verity on Dec 12, 2018 3:37:23 GMT
Great minds think alike...TRAP. I wanna test this, but I feel like one could do montonte indoors with a ko-katana i think a nice ko-katana or even a wakizashi / ko-wakizashi pair would make some good cqb options.
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Post by howler on Dec 12, 2018 4:52:28 GMT
I wanna test this, but I feel like one could do montonte indoors with a ko-katana i think a nice ko-katana or even a wakizashi / ko-wakizashi pair would make some good cqb options. And speaking of pairing, I just ordered from Special Projects (blemished seconds that's priced at $99) a CS (kabutowari) helmet breaker. Silly, as it can't cut those helmets, so Hachiwari (skull breaker) is a more appropriate name, and it was used as an offhand dagger to parry blades and stab and pry through gaps in Samurai protective clothing. I guess Yoroi Doshi were tanto with extra thick (1/2") blades used to deal with armor while stabbing while grappling up close, and this thing has many of those features though not as much cutting ability. I got it because it at least would look cool and interesting on a wall (also questions like "WTF is that, a can opener for human brains"), but wonder how effective it would be in its intended role. Paired with a waki or western style one hander (cutlass, saber, etc...) would be intriguing.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 17, 2018 0:11:31 GMT
i think a nice ko-katana or even a wakizashi / ko-wakizashi pair would make some good cqb options. And speaking of pairing, I just ordered from Special Projects (blemished seconds that's priced at $99) a CS (kabutowari) helmet breaker. Silly, as it can't cut those helmets, so Hachiwari (skull breaker) is a more appropriate name, and it was used as an offhand dagger to parry blades and stab and pry through gaps in Samurai protective clothing. I guess Yoroi Doshi were tanto with extra thick (1/2") blades used to deal with armor while stabbing while grappling up close, and this thing has many of those features though not as much cutting ability. I got it because it at least would look cool and interesting on a wall (also questions like "WTF is that, a can opener for human brains"), but wonder how effective it would be in its intended role. Paired with a waki or western style one hander (cutlass, saber, etc...) would be intriguing. Nice choice, I've often thought it would be a great option for parries and defensive-offense
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 17, 2018 0:14:09 GMT
I wanna test this, but I feel like one could do montonte indoors with a ko-katana i think a nice ko-katana or even a wakizashi / ko-wakizashi pair would make some good cqb options. The more I play with wakizashi the more I love them for cqc. Of course, I wouldn't be opposed to something with a good 23/24 in. blade rather than the 'standard' 19 +/- 1.5 in. norm. Really should save up for a Citadel lotus wakizashi, that sword calls out to me...or should just nab a mumei like we've talked about before.
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Post by Verity on Dec 17, 2018 0:23:39 GMT
i think a nice ko-katana or even a wakizashi / ko-wakizashi pair would make some good cqb options. The more I play with wakizashi the more I love them for cqc. Of course, I wouldn't be opposed to something with a good 23/24 in. blade rather than the 'standard' 19 +/- 1.5 in. norm. Really should save up for a Citadel lotus wakizashi, that sword calls out to me...or should just nab a mumei like we've talked about before. in the nihonto world for that blade length look for an o-wakizashi. That search will get you 20-23" in blade length usually
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Post by howler on Dec 17, 2018 1:21:28 GMT
And speaking of pairing, I just ordered from Special Projects (blemished seconds that's priced at $99) a CS (kabutowari) helmet breaker. Silly, as it can't cut those helmets, so Hachiwari (skull breaker) is a more appropriate name, and it was used as an offhand dagger to parry blades and stab and pry through gaps in Samurai protective clothing. I guess Yoroi Doshi were tanto with extra thick (1/2") blades used to deal with armor while stabbing while grappling up close, and this thing has many of those features though not as much cutting ability. I got it because it at least would look cool and interesting on a wall (also questions like "WTF is that, a can opener for human brains"), but wonder how effective it would be in its intended role. Paired with a waki or western style one hander (cutlass, saber, etc...) would be intriguing. Nice choice, I've often thought it would be a great option for parries and defensive-offense I was worried the thing would have problems (being labeled a Seconds), but there was nothing affecting durability or performance as it was built like a tank. The beak is both strong and super sharp, and it easily ripped through both sides of large paper/plastic shipping envelopes I had laying around with very little effort. The POB was around 2" in front of the guard, so it's fast in the hand (as one expects for an offhand parrying weapon) but still capable of hitting with great force with that tip, as the 13" bladed Hachiwari weighs 1 3/4 lbs. It is quite heavy when compared to European Main Gauche daggers, as it wants to achieve both striking force and prying ability if in close to an armored samurai. I have to imagine this thing would be fantastic in the off hand of someone wielding it indoors with a Waki in the strong hand, particularly a duel wielder like yourself, Zap.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 17, 2018 5:20:00 GMT
The more I play with wakizashi the more I love them for cqc. Of course, I wouldn't be opposed to something with a good 23/24 in. blade rather than the 'standard' 19 +/- 1.5 in. norm. Really should save up for a Citadel lotus wakizashi, that sword calls out to me...or should just nab a mumei like we've talked about before. in the nihonto world for that blade length look for an o-wakizashi. That search will get you 20-23" in blade length usually Do you know of any good repro of that style of sword? My understanding is that they're primarily single handed which really speaks to me. A stout cutlass-tana would seem like an ideal self defense item in terms of greater cutting ability.
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Post by Verity on Dec 17, 2018 13:43:32 GMT
in the nihonto world for that blade length look for an o-wakizashi. That search will get you 20-23" in blade length usually Do you know of any good repro of that style of sword? My understanding is that they're primarily single handed which really speaks to me. A stout cutlass-tana would seem like an ideal self defense item in terms of greater cutting ability. usually repro wakizashi are shorter 18" ish. What you could do is get a ko-katana and cut down the nakago and have a new tsuka made for a single hand maybe?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 17, 2018 15:27:22 GMT
The CS Dragonfly waki has a 22" blade.
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