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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 2, 2019 0:01:35 GMT
I would LOVE, absolutely LOVE to free spar with an authentic HEMA practitioner vs. my kenjitsu. But there is nobody in my area that practices authentic HEMA outside of the local SCA group- and I've seen them....phew...self learnt from anime and Hollywood by the looks of it. Not to disparage them as a group, they are having fun in their own way and I think that is fantastic, but it's not correct sword play so I don't see where sparring with them would yield any practical information (outside of being simple fun to do).
I have stated in the past that I don't believe the weapon is what wins the fight more so than the skill of the person using it. I have yet to see two equal skills vs. different weapon. Normally, as has been pointed out, it's two amateurs flailing away at each other, neither of them using actual fighting techniques that are correct for their weapon of choice.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 2, 2019 6:13:22 GMT
I would LOVE, absolutely LOVE to free spar with an authentic HEMA practitioner vs. my kenjitsu. But there is nobody in my area that practices authentic HEMA outside of the local SCA group- and I've seen them....phew...self learnt from anime and Hollywood by the looks of it. Not to disparage them as a group, they are having fun in their own way and I think that is fantastic, but it's not correct sword play so I don't see where sparring with them would yield any practical information (outside of being simple fun to do). I have stated in the past that I don't believe the weapon is what wins the fight more so than the skill of the person using it. I have yet to see two equal skills vs. different weapon. Normally, as has been pointed out, it's two amateurs flailing away at each other, neither of them using actual fighting techniques that are correct for their weapon of choice. I'm in the same camp here. And yes, some of the footage I've seen of '____ vs. ____' on youtube and elsewhere is far from definitive or sufficient to draw conclusions from.
I'd love to see a happy marriage between European and Asian martial arts. Being able to test techniques and integrate them from different schools would truly be enlightening. For example, a class that teaches sidesword and jian and the similarities and differences between their applications would be a phenomenal course in single handed double edged weaponry. Similarly, comparing and contrasting katana with swords like a kriegsmesser in a class would be great as well. Then encouraging sparring with all those different types to understand universal principles...that would be a great time.
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Post by howler on Jan 2, 2019 7:24:11 GMT
You are the resident duel wielding "two fister", so that's right in your wheelhouse. If your in a bar with a Guinness (or any alcoholic beverage) in each hand, it's called "Irish Handcuffs", btw. I've been thinking about a shorter tanto shaped blade in my strong hand to duel wield after I purchased a CS Hachiwari (skull breaker) offhand weapon this Christmas. Reminds me of what some more 'party-prone' friends I had years ago did, only they taped the beer mugs to the hand so that you couldn't put it down til it was put down. I just sipped whiskey and ate potatoes like a true Irishman.
That would be a fun combination, how are you liking the hachiwari lately? Looks like such a fun parrying weapon my main gauche gets a little jealous
It has weight (near 1 3/4lbs) for its 13"bld. and I liked it at the discounted price using such quality materials. I think it would work pretty well when wielding a single hand sword in the strong hand, historically I would imagine wakizashi type (12"-24" bld.) would work best. You could probably use it alone against armored foes in a grappling style like a rondel type dagger.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 2, 2019 23:02:28 GMT
I would LOVE, absolutely LOVE to free spar with an authentic HEMA practitioner vs. my kenjitsu. But there is nobody in my area that practices authentic HEMA outside of the local SCA group- and I've seen them....phew...self learnt from anime and Hollywood by the looks of it. Not to disparage them as a group, they are having fun in their own way and I think that is fantastic, but it's not correct sword play so I don't see where sparring with them would yield any practical information (outside of being simple fun to do). I have stated in the past that I don't believe the weapon is what wins the fight more so than the skill of the person using it. I have yet to see two equal skills vs. different weapon. Normally, as has been pointed out, it's two amateurs flailing away at each other, neither of them using actual fighting techniques that are correct for their weapon of choice. I'm in the same camp here. And yes, some of the footage I've seen of '____ vs. ____' on youtube and elsewhere is far from definitive or sufficient to draw conclusions from.
I'd love to see a happy marriage between European and Asian martial arts. Being able to test techniques and integrate them from different schools would truly be enlightening. For example, a class that teaches sidesword and jian and the similarities and differences between their applications would be a phenomenal course in single handed double edged weaponry. Similarly, comparing and contrasting katana with swords like a kriegsmesser in a class would be great as well. Then encouraging sparring with all those different types to understand universal principles...that would be a great time.
Yes indeed. What I would really like to see or participate in is a "....vs...." WITHOUT the ego being involved to find out which is "better". I would rather see a "....vs...." as a gentleman's exchange of martial training and techniques in which both practitioners approach the match as a tool for learning, not as a proving ground to gain superiority over the other. One may win, or not- it doesn't matter if both have gained something to take home with them. The closest I've come to this is with my karate instructor who also studied Kung Fu. He learned kata with a jian, but never sparred with it. We do examine the techniques and notice many similarities, but to be honest, the Kung Fu he learned was for mental training and not for actual fighting- so again there really isn't a good comparison to be made.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 2, 2019 23:14:55 GMT
I'm always game for a match, though my longsword has never been particularly good. The problem I've seen in these matches is what gear and rules do you use? HEMA encompasses a much broader set of match possibilities, since it encompasses everything from gearless slow sparring to full throttle/full kit. Is kenjutsu gear sufficient to take full force blows from steel feders to hand and head?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 2, 2019 23:33:14 GMT
Naturally safety rules will have to be in place, but... with the understanding that you could get hit and it could hurt. In fact, in much of the kenjitsu I've learned, getting hit is considered a proper way to learn that 1. you are not Superman 2. a real sword will hurt you a whole lot worse that the wood and 3. you really need to learn how not to get hit.
With that said, I am all for safety gear that prevents serious injury, but I am against rules that are so safety minded that they prohibit learning by banning the very moves we are trying to learn about. I'm thinking that at the level of skill I'm considering, the practitioners will be self-disciplined enough to know when to pull the hit (technical hits would count in this match). Consider it's not a match to try and actually hurt the other guy, but rather a match to show technique.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 3, 2019 2:11:46 GMT
For that I've usually gone with the slow-play system, which allows technical moves to be tested and demonstrated without much gear beyond a helmet. But it has its own set of shortcomings, and requires both parties know how to do it right. If one is cheesing the mutual pace you get skewed results. In my experience it only really works if the participants have worked with it for some time. The plus side is it permits maximum sword manipulation potential. The major downside is it doesn't really work very well to show the use of techniques that require high force. The displacement blows such as the zorn-ort for example are difficult to deploy when you're moving at a slow, controlled pace.
And the underlying problem is that whatever gear (or lack of gear) you go with, one or the other participant is likely to be at a disadvantage with it because they won't be used to it. Which is often what we see when this has been attempted. Even up to the point of the longsword person being forced to use a shinai LOL Maybe the answer is to agree upon the specifics far in advance and then take time to get used to them.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 3, 2019 2:46:03 GMT
I'm willing to take a few lumps in the name of science. I would wear protection over the important bits: head, hands, torso, 'nads an' 'nees. A certain amount of aggression is expected, it's not reasonable to assume it's going to be as safe as if you were laying in a feather bed. Getting bruised teaches where the weakness is in the technique. I'm up to the challenge- I want to learn and I want to experience different and authentic sword styles and if that involves spending time with an ice-pack and bottle of Tylenol afterwards then so be it- it certainly won't be the first time I've been knocked around a bit. Totally worth it in my opinion.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 3, 2019 4:08:23 GMT
Agreed; I'd take also take a bruising in the name of science! (wait a minute...go back a thousand years, substitute a deity for science and....hmmmm....maybe I should stop overthinking things and trolling myself?)
But more seriously, yes it would be awesome to see more cordial studies of techniques, not really contests either. The 'ego scratching' bit is a tad narrow minded, I think we can all agree, and its far more fun and worthwhile to learn the mechanics and techniques than it is to devolve into elitist snobbery.
On the topic of longswords, katana and the like, I stumbled on this video last night and thought it was a well done test comparing the weapons with somewhat fair scientific standardization. I'll post it here, as well as create a new thread for it as it is somewhat extraneously tangential to this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 14:32:47 GMT
Silly question but if you really want to check the ego at the door and just learn mechanics, isn't that called signing up for classes?
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 3, 2019 18:40:31 GMT
Silly question but if you really want to check the ego at the door and just learn mechanics, isn't that called signing up for classes? Absolutely, but the ego checking we're discussing is with a hypothetical school/class that would integrate various styles frequently at odds with each other (e.g. say, comparing Meyer longsword to shinkage ryu kenjutsu or saber drills, discussing pro's con's of each and integrating techniques to form a universal understanding of mechanics)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 20:42:44 GMT
At least on the JSA side, the practitioners would need a minimum of shoden menkyo to validate they had a command of the mechanics for the art you're interested in, just to have a baseline. If you're really going to take a look at an art and try to draw any conclusions you need to be looking at good examples, not just someone who showed up a few times.
This kind of thing has a real danger of drawing false conclusions, the whole "blind leading the blind" thing.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 3, 2019 22:03:47 GMT
At least on the JSA side, the practitioners would need a minimum of shoden menkyo to validate they had a command of the mechanics for the art you're interested in, just to have a baseline. If you're really going to take a look at an art and try to draw any conclusions you need to be looking at good examples, not just someone who showed up a few times. This kind of thing has a real danger of drawing false conclusions, the whole "blind leading the blind" thing. Yep, very true. I'm also optimistic that these sort of hypothetical...for lack of a better term, 'synthetic' schools would help debunk the 'blindness' in JSA and HEMA regarding the lack of pragmatism with some practices which don't help one gain expertise with a sword in a true combat-oriented sense. It'd just be nice to see students, who, well trained and versed in a variety of weapons, could say "that's dumb" to something, even if it's part of a rank requirement or standardized curriculum, because not everything we perceive as 'traditional martial arts' really is 'traditional' or 'practical'.
And then they need to post videos online so people start referencing good materials that are readily available! Instead of recreational blogs which oftentimes miss key points and can lead to a misinformation effect.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 22:56:59 GMT
Combat with a sword doesn't involve stopping when the judge raises a flag or shoves a stick in front of you, or worrying about the safety and well being of the guy on the other side. It doesn't involve layering yourself in protective gear to do what's supposedly bloßfechten.
Some exercises don't really make sense until you start getting introduced to more difficult or complicated techniques and maneuvers - precision footwork, balance and weight distribution, etc seems arbitrary and like it should be "good enough" until you start discovering that, no it actually does matter if you're slightly canted when your almost good enough throw opens you up to sutemi waza and your ukemi isn't up to the task of keeping you from eating curb.
Students always have the right of saying "screw this". Nobody's chained to the wall, anybody can walk for whatever reason they want, and honestly not having faith in the teacher or fellow practitioners is a very, very good reason to head out the door. It would be ridiculous to stick around if you didn't agree with or see value in the training methods.
Really the purpose of training is two-fold: to preserve / perpetuate the art itself and to develop the ability in the practitioner to perform it. It doesn't care if it makes you more spiritual or a more pragmatic combat oriented fighter, that's your problem. If you as a practitioner don't find that working your art is getting you closer to your desired goal, then it's kind of silly to keep showing up. That's absolutely time to find another group of people to roll with.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 4, 2019 0:01:46 GMT
I'm willing to take a few lumps in the name of science. I would wear protection over the important bits: head, hands, torso, 'nads an' 'nees. A certain amount of aggression is expected, it's not reasonable to assume it's going to be as safe as if you were laying in a feather bed. Getting bruised teaches where the weakness is in the technique. I'm up to the challenge- I want to learn and I want to experience different and authentic sword styles and if that involves spending time with an ice-pack and bottle of Tylenol afterwards then so be it- it certainly won't be the first time I've been knocked around a bit. Totally worth it in my opinion. That's a fair position. Bruising is almost inevitable in a full-force steel match. Broken smaller bones is still unfortunately pretty common. Though not as bad as it was in the early days.
There was one fellow who was going to fight me a few years ago, but he vanished after the challenge. My advantage is I'm crappy enough that I don't really care about losing LOL I just find the concept interesting. And I've lost to some pretty good fighters over the years. Enough to give me some level of insight about how badly I've lost.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 4, 2019 0:34:15 GMT
I'm willing to take a few lumps in the name of science. I would wear protection over the important bits: head, hands, torso, 'nads an' 'nees. A certain amount of aggression is expected, it's not reasonable to assume it's going to be as safe as if you were laying in a feather bed. Getting bruised teaches where the weakness is in the technique. I'm up to the challenge- I want to learn and I want to experience different and authentic sword styles and if that involves spending time with an ice-pack and bottle of Tylenol afterwards then so be it- it certainly won't be the first time I've been knocked around a bit. Totally worth it in my opinion. That's a fair position. Bruising is almost inevitable in a full-force steel match. Broken smaller bones is still unfortunately pretty common. Though not as bad as it was in the early days.
There was one fellow who was going to fight me a few years ago, but he vanished after the challenge. My advantage is I'm crappy enough that I don't really care about losing LOL I just find the concept interesting. And I've lost to some pretty good fighters over the years. Enough to give me some level of insight about how badly I've lost.
I call BS. A true swordsman would have committed seppuku if he lost a fight... But seriously, I've learned more from "losing" than I ever have from "winning". Although I don't really look at it as a "win or lose" issue. I approach it with a "teach or be taught" mentality. I find that far more beneficial because it makes me try to remember what happened, why I missed my strike or took a hit, so later on I can use/reject something from the match to better myself. However, at the pace I'm learning, I think I've got another 4.2 million years to go...
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 4, 2019 1:32:54 GMT
LOL I know what you mean. One thing I've noticed is that regardless of the rules set, I can almost always tell if I'm winning or losing. With some opponents like Roland or even more Cornelius Berthold I am utterly unable to get in. It wouldn't matter if it was full gear or not, they are moves ahead of me and I can't get through the center safely. My only hope would be to take a hit and tackle if I survived. With others in my local group I'm more evenly matched. And I can even get a hit in on my instructor from time to time. I did a series of intense bouts a few years back at Swordsquatch with a variety of skill level opponents. The newbies were pretty easy to collapse and cut. But a very good saber specialist just made mincemeat of me. I was left chasing the blade. That was one of my most important losses, since it showed I had been relying too much on bind work.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 4, 2019 1:40:20 GMT
Yes, clearly a few seconds into a match and I know if I'm in over my head or not. What frustrates me most is that I'm either way better than my opponent, or that I'm clearly no match at all for him. I've yet to have a toe-to-toe with the outcome uncertain. But I suppose that's the way it was back in the olden days; you probably got really super good over many years, or you died young and stupid. Probably very few real sword fights were between "equals". But as I stated before, there are very few practitioners in my area so my pool of opponents is very small indeed, and every one of them is Kendo based.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 4, 2019 1:54:07 GMT
Where are you at?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 4, 2019 2:01:37 GMT
Coastal Virginia, USA. We have several Kendo schools, one or two also teach Iado, but nothing as far as kenjitsu is concerned. I would like to hook up with some like-minded people for practice. I doubt we can get an actual school started due to the rarity of good instructors in the US in general, let alone one in my area. But informal practice is better than nothing at all.
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