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Post by Verity on Dec 17, 2018 15:30:57 GMT
The CS Dragonfly waki has a 22" blade. ah yes. Forgot about that one. Thanks Andi. No repro waks of that length were coming to mind
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 17, 2018 15:38:27 GMT
The UC Honshu Boshin waki has a 21-22" blade, on the cheaper side but more like a ko katana. The A.P.O.C. Cutlass also.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 22, 2018 11:12:41 GMT
Another point.
As a near sighted person, i feel not so good at long distance fighting, even if just a small field. I tend to prefer walls to act as shields, when planning foot work around obstacles.
I was once called "trap door spider" jokingly, referring to my tactical methods of melee defense I once felt passionate about developing and sharing. I used WW1 knight fighting manuals as a functional, practical and recently practiced, method of knife based martial arts. I find they work for near sighted people. It is a very specific and single task use of this skill, but so are the use of spear, pike, and military bow. At least how I remember it, though unlikely its accurate.
Anyway, to stop rambling, my point is, Katana is the best weapon for near sighted, quiet people. If you can sneak, plan ahead well, and basically focus on survival, I feel the short, thick spined, hard edged blade, that lends itself to even badly done cuts, is the perfect weapon of the near sighted person.
I only mention all this cause I always felts its design just practically loaned itself to my specific cause of ownership. I mean, I would totally take my sword of danu and targ (after learning how great of a pair they were, recently), but a Katana is an amazing stand alone weapon for someone who knows nothing of weapons.
Especially if near sighted.
(Due to being near sighted, as my main point, drives the reason I prefer roman/spartan ideals of "up close fighting". When used in modern day ideas of survival, it pairs well with our urban walled obstacles, especially against intruders. This is why the knife fighting of the "black face", a mix of Canadians, Canadian native americans, with their stealth techniques they taught, and Americans makes sense to me, especially in urban environments.)
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 22, 2018 11:16:16 GMT
Okay, so if that doesn't make sense of why I don't think Katana are poorly made weeb obsessions that totally suck, I really dont think anything else can. Matt Easton did a very good job of explaining how well they were respected, and so did metatron. If a bat in the hands of a skilled baseball player isn't a hickory bat to be reckoned with? Why not a Katana in a kendo users hands? Real sparring somewhat, closer to baseball than HEMA, but isn't it still a sport thats great for body mechanics in practice? Anyway I feel Kendo would benefit the modern two handed saber user in the sense it would give something fast and frequent to use against the guy who just grabbed a bat, apocalypse minded. Its fast shallow cuts (which could do a lot if we trust zombiegobooms analysis) could be useful against someone who didn't expect aggression. Against an experienced, skillful person, it might not mean much though. Against the average joe who thinks his survival means more than yours? This combination of WW1 techniques, kendo, and everything else ya might know to add unto it, can probably do ya good Didn't mean to make that an advertisement though. I doubt anyone considers me a good enough source to take my word, and I am uninterested in teaching. I only want to discuss, cause anything I could be wrong in only means I will be right when you correct me
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 22, 2018 11:52:26 GMT
When I say kendo, I mean a properly executed men strike. When you use the push pull, circular, then landing at the forhead strike, and back at an overhead guard, you create super fast powerful, draw cutting blows at the skull. At a minimum, it will distract the guy
I may hire a student. One to perform the techniques and stunts for me. I don't care for making my own identity the face of my project. Improving my projects identity is what I prioritize
I take ideas based on experience and the experience of others, including the ones posted on the site. I do not think a single opinion to be the correct one, even if its my own, but I like to think a collection of opinions might help us all to make more educated ideas.
Even with me, I was against medium/short swords like a leaf blade with a targe or even a viking shield. Odd combinations yes, but I plan them around urban environments. But anyway, after using some of my own weapons, which were quite heavy, I realized, than anything, any combination of stuff existing, could likely have been built, its own system easily. Weapons are adaptable by a wide margin. I think a theory could exist here
Most examples of fighting have always been built with tactician and environment. If we want to use what we know, we should talk about what we think could work best with our formations, in urban environments
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 22, 2018 12:07:50 GMT
By the way, I don't think anyone thinks I am a badass based on what I wrote. I am not delusional. I don't think anyone sees an expert fighter, or even anyone to take seriously. But I learned based on listening to opinions, in any slight implication it might expand what I can do or know. If you are the same, what I say has its use, even if only an extra opinion or view
I might just be lit, but a spadroon in the left hand and a bayonet in the right feels right. Or a spadroon like saber like the Spanish 1890-1893 with its matching steel cased bayonet.
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Post by markus313 on Dec 22, 2018 13:11:32 GMT
I really enjoyed the read and agree on many of the points made. However, just for the fun of playing devil`s advocate...
Imo, there are pretty strong reasons why in confined spaces cutlasses were preferred by warriors of all of the western nations (though they had cutlasses in the east, too). A well-made one handed short sword with a good hilt is more nimble than a short two-handed saber, one hand is easier redirected than two hands. The cutlass rotates in a tighter arc, and can be brought to guard much quicker. It offers more protection for the hands (and forearm and head, depending). A long hilt is not ideal for one-handed usage and can easily get caught in things. Having a hand free to grapple, open doors, using an off-hand weapon etc. is important in confined spaces. A short stout one-handed blade can thrust and cut just as well as a ko-katana, if not better, due to acceleration from the wrist. The only thing it is worse at than a kat is slicing.
All of the above becomes exponentially important when facing more than one armed opponent.
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Post by markus313 on Dec 22, 2018 13:12:01 GMT
I might just be lit, but a spadroon in the left hand and a bayonet in the right feels right. Or a spadroon like saber like the Spanish 1890-1893 with its matching steel cased bayonet. …AFAIK, a thrust centric sword in conjunction with a dagger was often times preferred by more experienced swordsmen. I can see some merits of that combo, too, as long as the sword`s blade is not too long (Silver`s ideal length might even be too long in confined spaces). Thinking of spadroon and naval dirk, for example.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 22, 2018 14:37:32 GMT
Or two gladii with bowl guards! ( A heavier Mainz in the main hand and a Pompeii in the offhand, ghrrrr...)
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Post by demonskull on Dec 22, 2018 16:24:29 GMT
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 22, 2018 16:29:21 GMT
When I was in the Army we had a poster on the wall of the Commander's office that showed a graveyard and a ghost soldier floating above it. The poster said ""let no man's soul cry out "Had I the Proper Training"". I have found this simple philosophy to be very true in many areas.
So with sword fighting, some training is better than none, and any well trained swordsman can hold his own vs. either untrained, ignorant, or dissimilar fighters. When you train with the blade of your choice it builds confidence and allows you to understand the full abilities (and limitations) of what the blade can do. Swords are tools, like hammers and wrenches are tools, and each has it's function. A hammer is excellent at driving nails, but it's really bad at turning a bolt. You have to use the proper tool for the job, and know what it can and cannot do.
In the case of the Katana, yes, there is a huge amount of BS urban mythology surrounding it, but at it's core it is a very capable blade in the hands of a trained swordsman. While a cutlass or longsword don't have the urban mythos, they are also capable blades in the hands of those that were properly trained in their use. I can see either or all of them failing miserably in the hands of a person that has never used one before and just picks it up expecting to be an expert based on nothing more than the mythos that surrounds that particular style of blade. Just because you own a professional quality paintbrush doesn't mean you can paint like Picasso.
As for me, if I had to choose, I would choose to be properly trained with a specific type of blade over trying to use a "perfect" sword and not knowing what I am doing with it. In my eyes, it's a training issue, not an equipment issue.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 22, 2018 17:19:42 GMT
My first real sword, not tool/weapon that I was use to, was a katana. I was partly caught up in the katana myth and found it not only cut well but I felt comfortable using it defensively. Then I began considering the environment that I’d be using it if SHTF, at least for me, which would be in the confines of my house, not a spacious field. It was about this time that I got a rapier and decided with its thrusts I felt better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. Actually I have decided a shield is a better primary weapon, I can block, crowd, and strike with it while being reasonable safe and a short sword could be used when the shield makes an opening. There is no reason to alternate between the two. Using them simultaneously the shield can act as a diversion such as going high while the sword goes low. My cutlass is perfect for this and provides the best hand protection, fast, nimble, cuts and thrusts. Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 22, 2018 18:01:35 GMT
....... better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. .....Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally. Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make. Instead of simply thinking that X blade was better than Y blade, you got some training and understood HOW the blades were designed to function and made a decision based on facts. Indeed, the use of the katana is circular motion and requires quite a lot of overhead clearance to use since it was intended to be used outside on a battlefield. Naturally, it can be adapted to close quarters, but it was never designed for that. As much as I like the kat, I would pick my gladius for home defense instead. The cutlass, on the other hand, if you understand how it is employed in combat, was developed and perfected for use on ships where wide circular motions aren't very practical. It's a much better weapon in close quarters than the kat. Again, the right tool for the conditions. So which is "better"? It depends on how you wish to use it. Is the hammer better for turning a screw- or would you rather use the screwdriver for that particular task?
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Post by howler on Dec 22, 2018 20:46:04 GMT
I really enjoyed the read and agree on many of the points made. However, just for the fun of playing devil`s advocate... Imo, there are pretty strong reasons why in confined spaces cutlasses were preferred by warriors of all of the western nations (though they had cutlasses in the east, too). A well-made one handed short sword with a good hilt is more nimble than a short two-handed saber, one hand is easier redirected than two hands. The cutlass rotates in a tighter arc, and can be brought to guard much quicker. It offers more protection for the hands (and forearm and head, depending). A long hilt is not ideal for one-handed usage and can easily get caught in things. Having a hand free to grapple, open doors, using an off-hand weapon etc. is important in confined spaces. A short stout one-handed blade can thrust and cut just as well as a ko-katana, if not better, due to acceleration from the wrist. The only thing it is worse at than a kat is slicing. All of the above becomes exponentially important when facing more than one armed opponent. Other advantages of the one hand sword are shields & parrying weapons in the off hand, or having a cutlass in your off hand and a handgun in your strong if one is able and willing to use firearms.
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Post by howler on Dec 22, 2018 20:57:38 GMT
Another point. As a near sighted person, i feel not so good at long distance fighting, even if just a small field. I tend to prefer walls to act as shields, when planning foot work around obstacles. I was once called "trap door spider" jokingly, referring to my tactical methods of melee defense I once felt passionate about developing and sharing. I used WW1 knight fighting manuals as a functional, practical and recently practiced, method of knife based martial arts. I find they work for near sighted people. It is a very specific and single task use of this skill, but so are the use of spear, pike, and military bow. At least how I remember it, though unlikely its accurate. Anyway, to stop rambling, my point is, Katana is the best weapon for near sighted, quiet people. If you can sneak, plan ahead well, and basically focus on survival, I feel the short, thick spined, hard edged blade, that lends itself to even badly done cuts, is the perfect weapon of the near sighted person. I only mention all this cause I always felts its design just practically loaned itself to my specific cause of ownership. I mean, I would totally take my sword of danu and targ (after learning how great of a pair they were, recently), but a Katana is an amazing stand alone weapon for someone who knows nothing of weapons. Especially if near sighted. (Due to being near sighted, as my main point, drives the reason I prefer roman/spartan ideals of "up close fighting". When used in modern day ideas of survival, it pairs well with our urban walled obstacles, especially against intruders. This is why the knife fighting of the "black face", a mix of Canadians, Canadian native americans, with their stealth techniques they taught, and Americans makes sense to me, especially in urban environments.) I think this (using overwhelming power from out of nowhere...unseen...with short heavy blades to achieve quick incapacitation) is a smart tactic in many home defensive encounters. As long as you have correctly determined to do so, it gives you the advantage over larger, better armed or skilled adversaries who might actually be carrying firearms. And really, the first rule of a knife fight is not to get in one, though I still like to imagine open field duels comparing various weaponry.
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Post by howler on Dec 22, 2018 21:25:01 GMT
My first real sword, not tool/weapon that I was use to, was a katana. I was partly caught up in the katana myth and found it not only cut well but I felt comfortable using it defensively. Then I began considering the environment that I’d be using it if SHTF, at least for me, which would be in the confines of my house, not a spacious field. It was about this time that I got a rapier and decided with its thrusts I felt better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. Actually I have decided a shield is a better primary weapon, I can block, crowd, and strike with it while being reasonable safe and a short sword could be used when the shield makes an opening. There is no reason to alternate between the two. Using them simultaneously the shield can act as a diversion such as going high while the sword goes low. My cutlass is perfect for this and provides the best hand protection, fast, nimble, cuts and thrusts. Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally. Sword AND shield is a wicked combo. A lightweight shield with llla ballistic protection would be ideal, and I'm currently looking into candidates, as the all steel Hardcore Defense Alpha is probably only good for less mobile gun/shield use due to weight (over 20lbs). Anyone know anything about Dyneema fiber for use in shields?
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Post by howler on Dec 22, 2018 21:33:48 GMT
....... better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. .....Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally. Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make. Instead of simply thinking that X blade was better than Y blade, you got some training and understood HOW the blades were designed to function and made a decision based on facts. Indeed, the use of the katana is circular motion and requires quite a lot of overhead clearance to use since it was intended to be used outside on a battlefield. Naturally, it can be adapted to close quarters, but it was never designed for that. As much as I like the kat, I would pick my gladius for home defense instead. The cutlass, on the other hand, if you understand how it is employed in combat, was developed and perfected for use on ships where wide circular motions aren't very practical. It's a much better weapon in close quarters than the kat. Again, the right tool for the conditions. So which is "better"? It depends on how you wish to use it. Is the hammer better for turning a screw- or would you rather use the screwdriver for that particular task? Even the Japanese designed the Waki for use indoors, and why I have a (21" blade) Chenese Ko-katana under the bed. Interesting would be Waki and parrying weapon in the offhand, as I'm thinking due to recent purchase of CS Hachiwari, so called "helmet breaker".
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Dec 22, 2018 23:52:04 GMT
Interesting would be Waki and parrying weapon in the offhand, ... Sounds like Musashi himself, as I think this is what he was advocating. I know he was pushing a sword in each hand and I think it was a wakizashi in the off hand.
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Post by howler on Dec 23, 2018 0:31:50 GMT
Interesting would be Waki and parrying weapon in the offhand, ... Sounds like Musashi himself, as I think this is what he was advocating. I know he was pushing a sword in each hand and I think it was a wakizashi in the off hand. Yup, and my thinking is that you down level both the main sword and offhand from katana/wak to wak/dagger type, though I know there are a few full size in both hand advocates out there, but I'd cut my "twig & berries" off if I tried .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 5:02:15 GMT
"you should be able to use your long sword with either hand" is not the same thing as saying "you should be able to use a long sword in each hand simultaneously".
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