Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2018 2:36:47 GMT
I really enjoyed the read and agree on many of the points made. However, just for the fun of playing devil`s advocate... Imo, there are pretty strong reasons why in confined spaces cutlasses were preferred by warriors of all of the western nations (though they had cutlasses in the east, too). A well-made one handed short sword with a good hilt is more nimble than a short two-handed saber, one hand is easier redirected than two hands. The cutlass rotates in a tighter arc, and can be brought to guard much quicker. It offers more protection for the hands (and forearm and head, depending). A long hilt is not ideal for one-handed usage and can easily get caught in things. Having a hand free to grapple, open doors, using an off-hand weapon etc. is important in confined spaces. A short stout one-handed blade can thrust and cut just as well as a ko-katana, if not better, due to acceleration from the wrist. The only thing it is worse at than a kat is slicing. All of the above becomes exponentially important when facing more than one armed opponent. I once had a cutlass with a middle eastern style hilt. Easily one of my favourite swords and my most preferred sword for indoors. Also, can't argue that it was a sword perfectly designed for indoor use. Thank you for mentioning it It would require some practice to use, but then again, all swords do.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2018 2:47:54 GMT
When I was in the Army we had a poster on the wall of the Commander's office that showed a graveyard and a ghost soldier floating above it. The poster said ""let no man's soul cry out "Had I the Proper Training"". I have found this simple philosophy to be very true in many areas. So with sword fighting, some training is better than none, and any well trained swordsman can hold his own vs. either untrained, ignorant, or dissimilar fighters. When you train with the blade of your choice it builds confidence and allows you to understand the full abilities (and limitations) of what the blade can do. Swords are tools, like hammers and wrenches are tools, and each has it's function. A hammer is excellent at driving nails, but it's really bad at turning a bolt. You have to use the proper tool for the job, and know what it can and cannot do. In the case of the Katana, yes, there is a huge amount of BS urban mythology surrounding it, but at it's core it is a very capable blade in the hands of a trained swordsman. While a cutlass or longsword don't have the urban mythos, they are also capable blades in the hands of those that were properly trained in their use. I can see either or all of them failing miserably in the hands of a person that has never used one before and just picks it up expecting to be an expert based on nothing more than the mythos that surrounds that particular style of blade. Just because you own a professional quality paintbrush doesn't mean you can paint like Picasso. As for me, if I had to choose, I would choose to be properly trained with a specific type of blade over trying to use a "perfect" sword and not knowing what I am doing with it. In my eyes, it's a training issue, not an equipment issue. What I've seen, based on tests zombiegoboom did, is that the general agreement is that a katana gets more done in the hands of someone who isn't trained. It's thicker, stiffer blade lends well to badly done cuts. I am mostly saying it does well with today's idealogy, where we try minimize factors that could affect our success. People today prefer easy. Everything we have made today is made to be easily used. Intuitive. If a person needs a melee weapon yo defend with, a katana has stopping power, thrusting reach, and cuts just as well with the COP and the tip of the sword, but with a long sword it mostly cuts well with the COP, and is easier to flub cuts with. I should mention, I mean a TH dotunaki katana. Not an agile DH blade. And if someone knows how to use a shield, a gladius with a shield is preferable to me, personally. But the katana is good for being versatile. What would you rather stop a full power swing with a baseball bat with? A one handed cutlass or a two handed thick bladed katana? Most would do better with the katana I think. Though I would prefer my targe for that I guess that I just like how applicable to most situations that a DH katana can be
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2018 2:51:27 GMT
My first real sword, not tool/weapon that I was use to, was a katana. I was partly caught up in the katana myth and found it not only cut well but I felt comfortable using it defensively. Then I began considering the environment that I’d be using it if SHTF, at least for me, which would be in the confines of my house, not a spacious field. It was about this time that I got a rapier and decided with its thrusts I felt better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. Actually I have decided a shield is a better primary weapon, I can block, crowd, and strike with it while being reasonable safe and a short sword could be used when the shield makes an opening. There is no reason to alternate between the two. Using them simultaneously the shield can act as a diversion such as going high while the sword goes low. My cutlass is perfect for this and provides the best hand protection, fast, nimble, cuts and thrusts. Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally. Sword AND shield is a wicked combo. A lightweight shield with llla ballistic protection would be ideal, and I'm currently looking into candidates, as the all steel Hardcore Defense Alpha is probably only good for less mobile gun/shield use due to weight (over 20lbs). Anyone know anything about Dyneema fiber for use in shields? I have my heavy targe shield, but in the dominant hand it would be devastating as a bludgeon and to stop attacks Also I considered making my bullet proof panel into a shield. I'm not sure yet
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 24, 2018 3:21:37 GMT
When I was in the Army we had a poster on the wall of the Commander's office that showed a graveyard and a ghost soldier floating above it. The poster said ""let no man's soul cry out "Had I the Proper Training"". I have found this simple philosophy to be very true in many areas. So with sword fighting, some training is better than none, and any well trained swordsman can hold his own vs. either untrained, ignorant, or dissimilar fighters. When you train with the blade of your choice it builds confidence and allows you to understand the full abilities (and limitations) of what the blade can do. Swords are tools, like hammers and wrenches are tools, and each has it's function. A hammer is excellent at driving nails, but it's really bad at turning a bolt. You have to use the proper tool for the job, and know what it can and cannot do. In the case of the Katana, yes, there is a huge amount of BS urban mythology surrounding it, but at it's core it is a very capable blade in the hands of a trained swordsman. While a cutlass or longsword don't have the urban mythos, they are also capable blades in the hands of those that were properly trained in their use. I can see either or all of them failing miserably in the hands of a person that has never used one before and just picks it up expecting to be an expert based on nothing more than the mythos that surrounds that particular style of blade. Just because you own a professional quality paintbrush doesn't mean you can paint like Picasso. As for me, if I had to choose, I would choose to be properly trained with a specific type of blade over trying to use a "perfect" sword and not knowing what I am doing with it. In my eyes, it's a training issue, not an equipment issue. What I've seen, based on tests zombiegoboom did, is that the general agreement is that a katana gets more done in the hands of someone who isn't trained. It's thicker, stiffer blade lends well to badly done cuts. I am mostly saying it does well with today's idealogy, where we try minimize factors that could affect our success. People today prefer easy. Everything we have made today is made to be easily used. Intuitive. If a person needs a melee weapon yo defend with, a katana has stopping power, thrusting reach, and cuts just as well with the COP and the tip of the sword, but with a long sword it mostly cuts well with the COP, and is easier to flub cuts with. I should mention, I mean a TH dotunaki katana. Not an agile DH blade. And if someone knows how to use a shield, a gladius with a shield is preferable to me, personally. But the katana is good for being versatile. What would you rather stop a full power swing with a baseball bat with? A one handed cutlass or a two handed thick bladed katana? Most would do better with the katana I think. Though I would prefer my targe for that I guess that I just like how applicable to most situations that a DH katana can be Errr that's also Zombie Go Boom though. A plastic skull on a stand behaves differently to a moving target, and a completely untrained person might not be able to use a two handed sword as easy as a one handed sword, Where it's fairly intuitive to use on instinct. I would rather stop the blow with the cutlass. At that point I can also use my other hand to grab the bat, or his hands while his bat is occupied. In theory you can use a katana in the same way, but it's not optimized for two handed use so someone untrained in sword skills might not have the know how of how to do so.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2018 6:32:09 GMT
What I've seen, based on tests zombiegoboom did, is that the general agreement is that a katana gets more done in the hands of someone who isn't trained. It's thicker, stiffer blade lends well to badly done cuts. I am mostly saying it does well with today's idealogy, where we try minimize factors that could affect our success. People today prefer easy. Everything we have made today is made to be easily used. Intuitive. If a person needs a melee weapon yo defend with, a katana has stopping power, thrusting reach, and cuts just as well with the COP and the tip of the sword, but with a long sword it mostly cuts well with the COP, and is easier to flub cuts with. I should mention, I mean a TH dotunaki katana. Not an agile DH blade. And if someone knows how to use a shield, a gladius with a shield is preferable to me, personally. But the katana is good for being versatile. What would you rather stop a full power swing with a baseball bat with? A one handed cutlass or a two handed thick bladed katana? Most would do better with the katana I think. Though I would prefer my targe for that I guess that I just like how applicable to most situations that a DH katana can be Errr that's also Zombie Go Boom though. A plastic skull on a stand behaves differently to a moving target, and a completely untrained person might not be able to use a two handed sword as easy as a one handed sword, Where it's fairly intuitive to use on instinct. I would rather stop the blow with the cutlass. At that point I can also use my other hand to grab the bat, or his hands while his bat is occupied. In theory you can use a katana in the same way, but it's not optimized for two handed use so someone untrained in sword skills might not have the know how of how to do so. Matt Easton, shadiversity, skall and a few others chimed in as well, and the results mirrored what seemed to be the general opinion. I'm not saying the damage woukd be the same, I am mostly saying that the katana was easier to perform a good cut with. It's a general agreement among respected opinions and there was testing to go along with it, as accurate or inaccurate as it was. Many also agree that it is difficult to use a static block against a two handed swing with one hand, as well. Parrying could work, but limited space makes options limited at times.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 24, 2018 6:33:39 GMT
"you should be able to use your long sword with either hand" is not the same thing as saying "you should be able to use a long sword in each hand simultaneously". My read on Musashi's martial philosophy was that it was focused primarily on practicality. Teach yourself to fight with both hands, because you don't know when wounds or circumstances will dictate fighting with one or the other. Weapons are just tools. Use the right tool for the job in front of you. Sometimes that calls for a spear, and sometimes it calls for a short blade. Don't become precious about your tools. A sword is a sharp piece of metal. Use it until it is no longer useful and replace it as needed. The no-nonsense approach to his writings are what make Musashi stand out starkly against the romanticized notions of class and budo-mystique.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 24, 2018 6:42:39 GMT
My first real sword, not tool/weapon that I was use to, was a katana. I was partly caught up in the katana myth and found it not only cut well but I felt comfortable using it defensively. Then I began considering the environment that I’d be using it if SHTF, at least for me, which would be in the confines of my house, not a spacious field. It was about this time that I got a rapier and decided with its thrusts I felt better using it indoors than with a katana’s sweeping swings that is subject to hitting the ceiling, more likely overhead lights and fans, not to mention walls, furniture, and other obstacles especially when doing footwork. To cut it short, in the end I decided inside, where I would most likely be and especially in hallways, I have two and believe me mine are no place to swing a katana, a short thrust/cutting sword works better. Actually I have decided a shield is a better primary weapon, I can block, crowd, and strike with it while being reasonable safe and a short sword could be used when the shield makes an opening. There is no reason to alternate between the two. Using them simultaneously the shield can act as a diversion such as going high while the sword goes low. My cutlass is perfect for this and provides the best hand protection, fast, nimble, cuts and thrusts. Don’t misunderstand, I still like katanas and would hate to get rid of mine, but now see them in a different light than originally. Sword AND shield is a wicked combo. A lightweight shield with llla ballistic protection would be ideal, and I'm currently looking into candidates, as the all steel Hardcore Defense Alpha is probably only good for less mobile gun/shield use due to weight (over 20lbs). Anyone know anything about Dyneema fiber for use in shields? I would love to see someone make a modern pavaise with level IV ballistic protection.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 24, 2018 13:24:07 GMT
Ok, I can accept the argument that in the hands of UNTRAINED people, the Katana is probably the easiest sword to get effective results from....BUT with an extreme caveat that it needs to be understood that there are so many random variables involved here that making a definitive statement is risky. We had a saying in the Army: " a professional soldier is predictable, but the world is full of amateurs". So who can say what will happen?
Do they have a sports background like baseball or tennis that might help them with accuracy or coordination? What is their fear level and will that help them to fight? It's been my experience that when it comes down to a real fight, untrained people often forget they have a weapon in their hands or they forget entirely how to use it under stress. And finally, did the untrained person every simply play around in the backyard with the sword randomly cutting things so they at least have some familiarity with the sword?.
Hard to say one way or the other. But as for me, if I had to stop a violent person swinging a baseball bat at me, I would take gladius with scutum and then get in close to finish it off.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 24, 2018 13:34:12 GMT
Errr that's also Zombie Go Boom though. A plastic skull on a stand behaves differently to a moving target, and a completely untrained person might not be able to use a two handed sword as easy as a one handed sword, Where it's fairly intuitive to use on instinct. I would rather stop the blow with the cutlass. At that point I can also use my other hand to grab the bat, or his hands while his bat is occupied. In theory you can use a katana in the same way, but it's not optimized for two handed use so someone untrained in sword skills might not have the know how of how to do so. Why go for the bat in the first place? If you have an opening to the assailant's arms, then why not slice the arms or the belly? If you stop the arms, then you stop the bat AND the assailant at the same time. It's not necessary to go weapon-on-weapon when you can go weapon to flesh. This is how I would handle a sword vs. bat. If I tried to parry the bat, the sword is sharp and might get stuck in the bat, now my opponent has the advantage- and the bat has more mass and could knock the sword from my hand or simply bludgeon through my block and hit me anyways. If I strike at the forearms, I take out the bat without risking anything on my part. Just some food for thought. Each fight has it's own dynamic and we each have our own styles. I just wanted to bring up another option that I don't hear people talking about much.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2018 15:53:16 GMT
Why go for the bat in the first place? If you have an opening to the assailant's arms, You just captured what I’ve been thinking since I read the introduction of bat. A katana with its two hand hold is more effective at blocking than a one handed sword. I am afraid the momentum of a bat would most definitely crash through any of my one hand swords and in all likelihood my two hand swords even if a caught the bat immediately above the guard. The only thing that I have that I have any hopes of stopping a full swung bat is my Windlass 9 lb heater shield. That thing is built to stop anything but a bullet, I think. Even with that I worry about where all of the energy is going to go. But I think that I’ll come through still on my feet with no fractures. But to tell the truth I would not parry the bat, I would target the arms stepping in where the bat is less effective. With the power my adversary would put in his swing coupled with my energy I think amputation is likely. My worry, as it would be if he was using a sword, would be not to be in line of the bat when it goes flying.
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Post by Verity on Dec 24, 2018 16:50:57 GMT
Honestly, unless I am in a very small house or a trailer type situation, I'd want a two handed weapon, with a medium length blade.
Katana or messer would be good for this. Messer gives you a guard.
Surroundings have a big deal to do with this. My house is open area floor plan and as such, I would be able to grab a 36" bladed war sword and swing it without concern of binding the weapon on walls or whatnot. My house is just built that way.
Also this is all theoretical for me because my actual home defense is not a blade at all. 😏
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 24, 2018 16:56:25 GMT
I'd rather get hit with a flying bat (with a pair of hands attached) than get hit with a bat that still has an entire person behind it that could hit me a second time...or third.
As I ponder this thought exercise, I wonder why the untrained would use a sword of any description, or why we would think it a good idea to equip them with one ourselves? A baseball bat is a far superior weapon for the unwashed masses. A sword takes some skill to use effectively, but a bat is a very well constructed caveman club- the use of which is ingrained instinctively into the collective human DNA. Wildly swinging a sword is of no use, but doing the same with a bat...now that could yield some results simply by accident. A bat can indeed be a terrible weapon when used in anger.
In the hypothetical situation where I had to equip my co-workers with weapons to fight back the Slomblovian zombie hoard on the job, I would give them bats. Simply because they would stand the highest probability of survival with absolutely no training outside of those that played ball at some point in their lives.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 24, 2018 17:01:58 GMT
.... Also this is all theoretical for me because my actual home defense is not a blade at all. 😏 In my opinion, "home defense" is spelled m-o-s-s-b-e-r-g
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Post by Verity on Dec 24, 2018 17:25:12 GMT
.... Also this is all theoretical for me because my actual home defense is not a blade at all. 😏 In my opinion, "home defense" is spelled m-o-s-s-b-e-r-g See? You know how to spell! 😂
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2018 20:37:02 GMT
Coming up against a bat is of low probability in my country. To tell the truth I’ve never seen neither in the nearly 20 years I’ve been here. Mostly likely it’ll be a machete. In the street where I probably won’t be would be a stick secondly, judging from the fight videos I’ve seen.
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howler
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Post by howler on Dec 24, 2018 22:34:16 GMT
I'd rather get hit with a flying bat (with a pair of hands attached) than get hit with a bat that still has an entire person behind it that could hit me a second time...or third. As I ponder this thought exercise, I wonder why the untrained would use a sword of any description, or why we would think it a good idea to equip them with one ourselves? A baseball bat is a far superior weapon for the unwashed masses. A sword takes some skill to use effectively, but a bat is a very well constructed caveman club- the use of which is ingrained instinctively into the collective human DNA. Wildly swinging a sword is of no use, but doing the same with a bat...now that could yield some results simply by accident. A bat can indeed be a terrible weapon when used in anger. In the hypothetical situation where I had to equip my co-workers with weapons to fight back the Slomblovian zombie hoard on the job, I would give them bats. Simply because they would stand the highest probability of survival with absolutely no training outside of those that played ball at some point in their lives. I'd arm the co-workers with spears instead of bats when dealing with that Slomblovian zombie hoard, as spears (poke, poke, poke) are pretty intuitive as well. I generally like a proper two over single hand (though some sabers are pretty amazing, even in short spaces) but I gotta yield to the advantages of short sword AND shield, or even certain off hand weapons. A proper shield wielded would put the opponent in quite the pickle. If your sword is robust enough (imagine the sturdy Condor Dodao), with any real training at all it will be better than a bat, and psychologically, humans DO NOT want to be cut, so only a drugged out lunatic would charge a katana wielding homeowner with a bat. Bats and blunt weapons are still pretty brutal, no doubt.
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howler
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Post by howler on Dec 24, 2018 22:43:24 GMT
.... Also this is all theoretical for me because my actual home defense is not a blade at all. 😏 In my opinion, "home defense" is spelled m-o-s-s-b-e-r-g Nothing wrong with that, as long guns reign supreme unless your in a phone booth. Suppose if I were forced to choose (I have Mossy in semi and pump, btw) I reckon I'd spell it A-R for myself (with proper ammo selection, of course) because you still have .44magnum level energy dump in roughly 14" of ballistic gelatin, have super fast recovery between shots, and you can shoot a man between the eyes at 100 yards if the fight goes outside. It is why police and soldiers still use AR when sweeping dwellings, though they still carry a slugged shottie for the locks.
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howler
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Post by howler on Dec 24, 2018 22:51:47 GMT
Coming up against a bat is of low probability in my country. To tell the truth I’ve never seen neither in the nearly 20 years I’ve been here. Mostly likely it’ll be a machete. In the street where I probably won’t be would be a stick secondly, judging from the fight videos I’ve seen. I fear the machete far more, brutal as a bat may be, because as I and others have said many times, nobody wants to get a slashed face, thus permanently disfigured. I've seen vids (nasty and not for the squeamish, so view with this in mind) on YouTube where a long machete cuts a hand off at the wrist. Sadly, Rwanda is exhibit A.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2018 23:03:34 GMT
Coming up against a bat is of low probability in my country. To tell the truth I’ve never seen neither in the nearly 20 years I’ve been here. Mostly likely it’ll be a machete. In the street where I probably won’t be would be a stick secondly, judging from the fight videos I’ve seen. I fear the machete far more, brutal as a bat may be, because as I and others have said many times, nobody wants to get a slashed face, thus permanently disfigured. I've seen vids (nasty and not for the squeamish, so view with this in mind) on YouTube where a long machete cuts a hand off at the wrist. Sadly, Rwanda is exhibit A. Hazel once showed me a photo of her friend’s severed hand after she displeased her boyfriend.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 24, 2018 23:03:36 GMT
Machetes are not to be trifled with, that much is sure. However, we must also consider the cultural application of the weapons. In the Far East and South America, the machete is to the people that live there as the cell phone is to those in the West. In other words, even a 10 year old Malaysian is an expert with a machete, whereas an American kid of the same age is an expert with a baseball bat. So it makes more sense to equip the locals with the weapon they would find most intuitive based on their cultural experiences.
I would avoid giving anything sharp like a spear to a person that's never used anything sharp due to the high risk of self injury, or injuring those around them. Even in the Army, we kept the sheath on the bayonet when it was fixed to the rifle until we were ready to use it for safety reasons. Now if I had an hour or two in which to train my expedient peasant militia, then I would absolutely go for spears in that case. I guess it's all dependent on the situation. If I had to arm my co-workers I would have to go with bats because there is a large sporting good store across the street from us and I can get my hands on the bats very easily whereas in the matter of spears or machetes I have no ideas where to get them locally unless we have the time to fabricate them ourselves (which we have the materials and means to do, but do we have the time?).
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