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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 18:15:59 GMT
it is weird that vendors and people have been banned for dubious unsubstantiated claims but these guys keep trucking along. I was under the impression those bans were for making claims that were proved to be false. DSA's claims have not yet been proven true or false. Now perhaps everyone in this thread should get together for a group hug.  :) Group hugs are great, but the ban was for making unsubstantiated claims. That's great, but it is inconsistently applied.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 19, 2017 18:21:55 GMT
Ok guess I will say my piece here... Or rather present factual data that some swords are shipped from India to Canada and their names are the same that Darksword armory models, and there are two variations of them with plain scabbard and with interlaced belt. Look here: www.zauba.com/export-/hs-code-93070000/fp-canada-hs-code.htmlSaga = Sage? The Waylander Flames of Angle = Flame of Angels? 5 lobe sword Oslo Danish sword etc. etc. Yes I know it's bit unfair to the company for me to post info like this as I am not 100% sure but in my own head I am 99% sure. And it is easily gotten from online. You can search things pretty well at Zauba site. Possibly kinda semprini move from me to post this but it is accessed by the public, and the information is out there. Yes we've been getting the DSA bashings occasionally and personally I have no problem with the company but I am always respecting the honest truth and I see plenty of shady stuff around DSA. Unfortunately that has been going on for years and years. When you think about sword sellers in Canada, who would order large stocks of swords going by these names and with 2 scabbard options? Hmm... hmm...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 19:12:46 GMT
BULLSEYE! RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES!
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Post by jrock on Jan 19, 2017 19:22:38 GMT
Would it be safe to say that DSA may forge prototypes themselves, ship those to India, then have that forge do the mass produced product? That might explain how there are more defective swords getting into Europe?
Seems like this has to be the case to me. Just my opinion tho.
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Post by Derzis on Jan 19, 2017 19:44:24 GMT
I said it would answer SOME of the questions like do they have a larger forge not just the two in the videos. Do they have a power hammer. You could watch them forging production blades not just custom ones and tempering them. You could see the swords being assembled and being flex tested. And if a delivery truck pulls up and unloads boxes full of blades with Chinese writing on the box, I think that would answer SOME questions too.. Oh, Scott forget the hug you're just not that cute. :) That's kind of stalking and spy thing. I lived in same city and never heard about them as canadian firm - just because I am not that "Canadian quality" sword when I think swords. I am "buy local" for other things, not swords. If for some that's a big deal, they can go and see or ask and ask and ask again. How can you think a virtual entity will be credible anyway? You think that firm is fishy? Good. They don't want a category of buyers from SBG? Perfect.
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Post by nddave on Jan 19, 2017 19:55:57 GMT
Would it be safe to say that DSA may forge prototypes themselves, ship those to India, then have that forge do the mass produced product? That might explain how there are more defective swords getting into Europe? Seems like this has to be the case to me. Just my opinion tho. Why go through the trouble of that when they could do Just like Valiant and Ronin for example and send design concepts and sketches to the forge? Seems a waist. Also it wouldn't refute the fact DSA swords aren't forged in Canada and outsourced. Great find Jussi! But will DSA respond or just keep as quiet as they've been and keep claiming forged in Canada? Big question that goes back to the Herald line, If the Herald line is sub $300, is admittedly made in India, has the same apparent quality of the other DSA swords, then why are the other DSA swords (apparently forged in India due to new evidence) costing over double the asking price of the Herald line?
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 19, 2017 19:59:00 GMT
Ok guess I will say my piece here... Or rather present factual data that some swords are shipped from India to Canada and their names are the same that Darksword armory models, and there are two variations of them with plain scabbard and with interlaced belt. Look here: www.zauba.com/export-/hs-code-93070000/fp-canada-hs-code.htmlSaga = Sage? The Waylander Flames of Angle = Flame of Angels? 5 lobe sword Oslo Danish sword etc. etc. Yes I know it's bit unfair to the company for me to post info like this as I am not 100% sure but in my own head I am 99% sure. ;) And it is easily gotten from online. You can search things pretty well at Zauba site. Possibly kinda semprini move from me to post this but it is accessed by the public, and the information is out there. Yes we've been getting the DSA bashings occasionally and personally I have no problem with the company but I am always respecting the honest truth and I see plenty of shady stuff around DSA. Unfortunately that has been going on for years and years. :( When you think about sword sellers in Canada, who would order large stocks of swords going by these names and with 2 scabbard options? Hmm... hmm... What the actual f... I have never seen this before Jussi. An Indian import/export database? The corporate data there is immense. Anyway, this is simply more proof of importation into Canada of bulk swords, the names of which are eerily similar to DSA names (archer's sword, saga sword, etc.) Very interesting. If I recall correctly, these models aren't part of that Legacy line.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 19, 2017 21:21:20 GMT
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 19, 2017 21:27:02 GMT
The Zauba database is actually pretty fun to look at (I actually found it today but I've known few similar sites for China). As the sword business is very small in many countries it is easy to check things. For example I believe it can be seen at the site when Rautaportti stocked up things from Windlass, because they are the biggest seller of Indian made swords in Finland.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 19, 2017 21:50:16 GMT
Decided to convert the INR to USD, the Danish comes in at like 45USD. I wonder what the hours are to complete the assembly of one sword for DSA once it reaches Canada?
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Post by nddave on Jan 19, 2017 22:00:52 GMT
Again excellent research Jussi! What the biggest slap to my face is the price difference when converting the Euro to US dollars!
For example the Medieval knight for example is sold on Battle Merchant for €69.99 Euro. Converted that's $74.55 USD!
The DSA Medieval Knight is $410.00 US or €384.42 converted to Euro!
See the "premium" being hand made in Canada now adds? Lol.
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Post by nddave on Jan 19, 2017 22:10:57 GMT
Decided to convert the INR to USD, the Danish comes in at like 45USD. I wonder what the hours are to complete the assembly of one sword for DSA once it reaches Canada? Oh you mean the hour or two it maybe takes to remove each of the X amount of swords from the Indian shipper and stamp the blades with the DSA logo and place it into the DSA shipping box? Even less if they have the Indian forge already stamp the DSA logo onto the swords they order before they ship them out to Canada, lol. Then they just have to swap shipping boxes. All in all I say "we'll worth" the extra $335.00 DSA charges! ROLF!!! Well at least thanks to Jussi I know where to buy a DSA sword if I choose to ever buy one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 22:31:20 GMT
Good find, good on you for sharing.
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Post by Brian Kunz on Jan 19, 2017 23:30:09 GMT
I think most of the old guard know my stance on DSA. But I'd like to add this old adage, and then that will be all I will say on the matter; oh the webs we weave when we first practice to deceive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 0:34:25 GMT
Decided to convert the INR to USD, the Danish comes in at like 45USD. I wonder what the hours are to complete the assembly of one sword for DSA once it reaches Canada? Sheesh, we're all a bit cheap aren't we! :)
Are we assuming several tonnes of steel magically flies over thousands of kilometres in a giant steel crate once you pay the per item cost???
All things are cheaper in bulk from wholesalers for a start, especially in ridiculously large batches.
I think someone forgot to factor in the cost of transporting a ruddy great big steel shipping crate around the world - people should think things through before they comment, this isn't a playground, it's international trade, depending on size of it would cost thousands to well over ten thousand dollars!
If it's that simple, go ahead folks, contact a forge in India and ask to buy one blade, see how far your 45USD goes, it would barely cover the postage cost...
If it's all that cheap and easy, well, stop complaining folks, do something about it, there's nothing stopping anyone contacting one of these Indian forges, or the Longquan forges in China listed in Aliexpress, sending them schematics and bringing us cheaper high quality swords. Don't expect to sell them the same price as DSA though, since they're sooooo cheap, I would expect VA quality for under $300, Albion quality for $500, that should keave a nice profit margin by the reasoning I'm seeing here. Any takers?
What does a steel blank for an Albion cost, it's just a slab common off the shelf 6150 steel. What do the milling bits for the CNC cost, not that you'd wear one out on a single blade? Throw in a couple of sanding belts. I'm seeing a hell of a lot of change out of $1000 here! Guess what's missing here???
Businesses have these mysterious things called operating costs, and they also have employees, strange entities called people that spend their time on site in return for a medium of exchange called money, which they use to support their lives.
Hate to say it, but we're sounding like a pack of spoiled children whining about their toys without thinking too deep at how real world businesses operate.
The words from Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" really capture the mindset
With the lights out, it's less dangerous Here we are now, entertain us I feel stupid and contagious Here we are now, entertain us A mulatto, An albino, A mosquito, My libido A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial! A denial!
I've said my part...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 1:08:57 GMT
Uh dude the point is that it's shady to mislead people about the origin of these things. The question about DSA wasn't operating cost. It wasn't shipping cost. It wasn't the cost of acid for etching their makers mark or the kind of stencil they used. It was about where the things came from.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 20, 2017 2:08:06 GMT
Decided to convert the INR to USD, the Danish comes in at like 45USD. I wonder what the hours are to complete the assembly of one sword for DSA once it reaches Canada? Sheesh, we're all a bit cheap aren't we! You enjoy paying more than you should? No, I'm not. I know how much international shipping can cost, in fact, I've sold more things to international locations than in the US, practically always taking half the shipping charge on myself! I don't know how much a pallet or boxcar crate costs, but that cost wold be completely dispersed throughout the entire order, not just that one sword. I never said they weren't, but buying something wholesale doesn't mean you should then rip off customers. That's BS. I didn't forget, I just didn't want to go through the trouble of making a fake cargo shipment just for a forum post. Yes it costs money to ship things, everyone knows that. What next, the moon isn't really made of cheese? I remember reading a post a while back that a one off run of replica cavalry sabres, of decent quality cost each buyer 250USD. That's nearly half of what DSA charges on the usual and that was a one off, no guarantee because it's not a business making the order deal. VA, Albion those don't break under very light cutting. What does anything you've written in your post even have to do with my post? Labor, knowhow, equipment, employees that are reliable. I know what goes into a business run in the US. DSA, unlike Albion, doesn't have to pay people hourly wages for the blades. Which is what my post is about, in case you didn't actually read it all and just read the "45USD" part, I asked openly what the labor costs were for a sword. No, we're not. If we were given them for free, then sure we might be. But since we have to shell out, let's use the CA minimum wage (10USD before taxes, more like 9 after though, so we'll go with 9) here, on the quoted sword, the DSA Danish, it would cost in the neighborhood of 47.5 hours. So no, if I work away for that long, I expect what was advertised, a Canadian made, fully functional sword. Not an overpriced made in India of dubious quality sword. You're acting like a child, and if you can't see how then that proves my point. I didn't read this last part, partly because I've never really liked nirvana and also because it's a waste of time to waste.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jan 20, 2017 2:22:52 GMT
I never knew babies could shell out 700$ for a sword that breaks when it's advertised as "battle ready".
I don't know what it's like in where ever you are from, but even here in Canada, 700$ is a semprini load to spend on a luxury item. Is it spoiled to expect the item to not break under regular use?
Are you being paid by DSA to write this?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 4:43:07 GMT
Oh heavens, how many times must I explain myself...
Okay, I'll reiterate. Some of DSA (custom lines) are forged in house, most likely the blade blanks for production lines are outsourced and assembly/finishing is onsite. They have a line they claim is made in the USA and a line they claim is made in India, see their site. So, the claim of made in Canada is true by legal definition, and the claim of forged in house is half true. As someone said before, it's just easier to say they're made in Canada as its easier to advertise and promote than to explain it all. Albion's claim of their swords being historical and hand made is completely false, as every product is machined on a CNC milled to the basic shape, that's definitely ahistorical in construction and not hand made. No BS splitting hairs here, it makes stuff all difference if the lie is about origin or construction, DSA's claim is half true, Albion's is completely false. You can't rationalise that away and DSA vendor bash without giving Albion a bigger serve otherwise its being selective where you apply your criticism. If your values and principles are not being equally applied, its called bias.
All the other spurious arguments running off on tangents are ones that other people have raised and I've addressed(such as cost, tangs, etc) which are not about what I've just stated above, which is the point of this thread.
If people reckon that DSA is so much overpriced, then be my guest, put your money where your mouth is, utilise the same forges they use to get things made at low expense, send them schematics for swords with thicker tangs and whatever you like to make the designs better than DSAs, get them shipped to where you are and sell them to the sword community here for less than DSA is selling theirs, undercutting the competition and making a healthy profit margin in the process. Do a poll and see what swords people want, you can do a production run based on orders like Paul does at the SBG stores with custom katana. That way each product produced is a guaranteed sale. We would all benefit from having more sword vendors offering a wider range of swords. That sounds like a no-brainer of a business opportunity for some entrepreneurial sword collector who reckons they can better DSAs offerings. Or, we can just whinge because that's always easier.
If we look at the history of people going into sword businesses in this forum, whether forging swords locally or even just reselling Chinese katana (members who have been here longer than five years and longer will remember all the cases we've seen), many have gotten into financial trouble, end up with backlogs of orders, some doing runners with people's money and so on.
If it was that easy every bastard and his dog would be making and selling swords. Get real folks, if you reckon the sword industry is that easy and that profitable as some make it out to be, why bother with your day jobs? I think the general consensus from the discussions in previous threads with many of the businesses in question is that the margins are very narrow, and the market is small, and it's basically a sh!# way of making a living, no-one's got filthy rich in this industry, there are no sword manufacturers or smiths in the Forbes' List of Richest People, it's a damn cottage industry that needs a whole international market it to prop it up.
Hey Djinnobi, here's my disclaimer, no I'm not being paid to write what I'm writing by DSA or anyone else, I have no association with DSA or any other vendor, I don't even buy DSA because they don't produce the kind of swords I collect and train with. I'm just addressing inconsistent reasoning, selective criticism and potential bias, which is being presented as an emotive fight for justice against dishonesty. For those who want to be warriors against supposed dishonesty, I showed equal or greater misrepresentations from other sword vendors and many greater real world causes (that some described disparagingly as "the evils of the world")if people's sense of justice is that strong that they want to do something about it. We can all consider the bigger picture, the way the world really works, and be mature in our expectations, or we can just come from a me, me , me perspective and complain that we're being victimised by evil sword vendors and that we want cheap swords, we want people to attend to our needs as we expect them, etc which sounds very much like puerile behaviour, which is why I questioned it.
We can be logical and reasonable about this and try to understand what is going on, and why such practices are indeed common, or we can engage in irrational emotive mob behaviour and prop up the stake and gather the firewood to punish Eyal of DSA for some supposed unforgivable transgression. meanwhile, real life continues and there's a lot more serious sh#@ going on that people would be better off getting riled up about. Each to their own.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 5:03:33 GMT
"Some of DSA (custom lines) are forged in house"
Show me. The ones shown so far show the damascus examples are simply ground from damascus billets. Show me Eyal was more involved than just outsourcing. A reply to this is a waste of your time (and lots of others reading your thoughts)without proof.
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