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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 19, 2017 8:43:05 GMT
There is a video on the net of a guy whose DSA breaks on a light cutting target and the way it breaks is ridiculous.
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Post by vinland on Jan 19, 2017 8:52:05 GMT
There is a video on the net of a guy whose DSA breaks on a light cutting target and the way it breaks is ridiculous. Are you thinking of This?
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 19, 2017 8:57:00 GMT
There is a video on the net of a guy whose DSA breaks on a light cutting target and the way it breaks is ridiculous. Are you thinking of This?Yep, that is clearly a tang break and then the guy goes on to endorse them anyway. If my sword broke like that they would be receiving a very strongly worded email and a demand for compensation for the cost of the sword that broke. I would also be letting this forum and the facebook group I am in know about this. I am not surprised about the break considering the tang shortcuts that are showing up on DSA swords.
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Post by vinland on Jan 19, 2017 9:02:27 GMT
He did get compensation though. That's one thing DSA is very good with in my experience, they respond quickly and sent a new sword to him (And to me in my case) very quickly. Presumably it's been holding up fine for him because he hasn't brought it up and as far as I know he still owns his two DSA swords
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 9:40:26 GMT
nddave, the point was to make people aware that the broader and more general claim of "made in wherever", which DSA also claims, legally does not have to be 100% made where it's claimed, so people can realistically set expectations and avoid pointless disappointment. There's no point to people misconstruing above-board legal origin claims as being dishonest and getting upset about it. Claiming forging on site, which I believe is an earlier non-current DSA claim, is a second separate and altogether different matter.
I take Croccifixio's point about evidence, in law there may be a presumption of good faith with evidence only checked when required after the fact to validate a claim. In the scientific world, nothing's believed without evidence, which is a different approach that avoids the disappointment of unfounded assumptions.
If people choose to believe vendor's claims without sufficient evidence, then they must accept the possibility that they may be misled intentionally or unintentionally through inflated or exaggerated sales claims, which are common to many vendors, including the esteemed Albion as we've discussed earlier.
With a more scientific evidence-based approach to forming opinions about things, we avoid making judgements or drawing conclusions without sufficient evidence, and are prepared to revise our position if further evidence presents itself. In absence of sound evidence we accept uncertainty. With this approach we wouldn't believe any claims in the first place, so there won't be any disappointment or surprises if they turn out not to be factual.
Think about it, that's what SBG is about, we share our first hand experience of our product purchases, giving potential new buyers reasonably sound evidence to base their buying decisions on. We sometimes see newbie fanboys visiting SBG, asking what budget katana they should buy, and then proceed to ignore all advice, suggestions and reviews, insisting on buying Ryansword for example. They're taking the good faith approach that it's company X, which they're a fan of for some reason, and will buy there regardless.
Croccifixio and I are illustrating different approaches to making judgements about vendors and products, their pros and cons, showing there's more than one perspective buyers can take. I believe my approach is more cautious and spares me from getting upset about misplaced trust.
In your final speculation about the true state of affairs, you missed another possibility. A previous commenter stated a third option, which was stated with some confidence based on the content of their videos and their understanding of the workshop layout, all which sounds reasonable - that DSA outsource their high volume standard production blades, doing finishing and assembly onsite, but completely hand forge their custom blades on site.
That would make their first origin claim of "Made in Canada" true, as the final assembly and finishing, even if some components are made elsewhere, legally qualifies this to be a true statement by law.
This would also make their second claim true for a part of their product lines, buy not for others, which makes it kind of grey, much like Albion's hand made claim.
The speculation that DSA does not forge all their product lines on site is similarly 'grey' to the known fact that none of Albion's products are entirely hand made. Yes, we may be speculating here with this possible state of affairs, but the final irony is priceless - if this state of affairs were indeed true, you could buy a custom DSA which would be both made in Canada and forged onsite, but you still wouldn't be able to but a hand made sword from Albion. Rather quaint when we consider all the possibilities, especially since we're comparing typically sub-$500 swords that come with scabbards to $1000+ bare swords, wouldn't you agree? ;)
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jan 19, 2017 9:51:50 GMT
Well like it or not there are places that call themselves forges that aren't. Most of you guys favorites are milled swords. I hate it when some calls themselves a forge and they don't forge or just bent a blade. You see I call myself a cutlery maker since I do stock removable and forging. I will let you know up front if it forged. If it has a forge finish you will see small hammer marks, real scale and forge pitting, not just a dark surface from putting in a forge.
I would really like to see their power hammer, even starting with flat stock you can turn out the number of swords they do without a power hammer. It takes me about 8 hours just to hammer out a simple longer blade out of flat stock. My scape blades aren't finished with a broken tang. Of course if I mess up on a longer blade it just becomes a shorter blade. None of their equipment looks right to me with the volume they do.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2017 9:57:49 GMT
So we've seen a DSA tang break and a H/T tang break, ... par? Both might be lemons, the H/T for sure. If the thin DSA tang is a structural problem there should be more known cases. I know historic tangs could be thin too, but what we've seen is of course very questionable. I recently bought the 2H Dane XVIIIe because I really like the look and it is a light thrusting sword not a beater XIIIa, so I still consider it as a sword and not a SLO. But I'm cautious. (at least, if the tang breaks the ricasso would make a beefy tang too)
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Post by nddave on Jan 19, 2017 11:50:18 GMT
nddave, the point was to make people aware that the broader and more general claim of "made in wherever", which DSA also claims, legally does not have to be 100% made where it's claimed, so people can realistically set expectations and avoid pointless disappointment. There's no point to people misconstruing above-board legal origin claims as being dishonest and getting upset about it. Claiming forging on site, which I believe is an earlier non-current DSA claim, is a second separate and altogether different matter. No its not, it is the matter. I asked DSA, "cool video. Now where's the one with the forge and you making swords?" You first turned this into a "what about the children" response that made no sense, them turned it into this political long winded legal dispute about what is what and why is why, lol! I take Croccifixio's point about evidence, in law there may be a presumption of good faith with evidence only checked when required after the fact to validate a claim. In the scientific world, nothing's believed without evidence, which is a different approach that avoids the disappointment of unfounded assumptions. OK then, scientificly Eyal claimed he made DSA swords in house in Canada..We asked for proof, he said I'll post a video. The video never came.
If people choose to believe vendor's claims without sufficient evidence, then they must accept the possibility that they may be misled intentionally or unintentionally through inflated or exaggerated sales claims, which are common to many vendors, including the esteemed Albion as we've discussed earlier. Again does it matter? No. A lie is a lie no matter which legality covers your ass. I swear you're trolling or trying to play some retarded game of devils advocate. Again what does Albion do or say that is exaggerated or similar to the complaint towards DSA? You're odd ball effort of putting a very transparent manufacturer in the same vein as a non-transparent like DSA is counter productive to your argument. With a more scientific evidence-based approach to forming opinions about things, we avoid making judgements or drawing conclusions without sufficient evidence, and are prepared to revise our position if further evidence presents itself. In absence of sound evidence we accept uncertainty. With this approach we wouldn't believe any claims in the first place, so there won't be any disappointment or surprises if they turn out not to be factual. Sure then that's what we'll do from now on ok, believe everyone is full of poo until they prove otherwise. Yep.... hey DSA where's the video? No video!? Full of poo. OK again contradicting your dorky devils advocate thing going on here but ok... I'll keep reading and responding. Think about it, that's what SBG is about, we share our first hand experience of our product purchases, giving potential new buyers reasonably sound evidence to base their buying decisions on. We sometimes see newbie fanboys visiting SBG, asking what budget katana they should buy, and then proceed to ignore all advice, suggestions and reviews, insisting on buying Ryansword for example. They're taking the good faith approach that it's company X, which they're a fan of for some reason, and will buy there regardless. Huh that's what we do here? I thought we discussed and reviewed swords? Didn't know we were data collectors like a bunch of robots Again what does that have to do with anything? Yes the newb buys a cheapo, we tell him other wise he doesn't listen... Ummm again what does this have to do with Eyal promising a video of him and his crew manufacturing swords in Canada and not delivering? Oh yea it doesn't! It just more of this pathetic attempt to sound smart and derail the topic!!! Ok onto the next obnoxiously spaced sentence!Croccifixio and I are illustrating different approaches to making judgements about vendors and products, their pros and cons, showing there's more than one perspective buyers can take. I believe my approach is more cautious and spares me from getting upset about misplaced trust. No what Croccifixio did was throw out all your proposed legal mumbo jumbo derailment with valid insight on how the legal system works, oh he also spoke his opinion on how DSA should just release a freaking video already or come out and tell the truth. Missed that part though didn't ya? In your final speculation about the true state of affairs, you missed another possibility. A previous commenter stated a third option, which was stated with some confidence based on the content of their videos and their understanding of the workshop layout, all which sounds reasonable - that DSA outsource their high volume standard production blades, doing finishing and assembly onsite, but completely hand forge their custom blades on site. That would make their first origin claim of "Made in Canada" true, as the final assembly and finishing, even if some components are made elsewhere, legally qualifies this to be a true statement by law. This would also make their second claim true for a part of their product lines, buy not for others, which makes it kind of grey, much like Albion's hand made claim. Ugghh, more ridiculously spaced sentences so I'll post under these three since they're on the same pretty much. Again has NOTHING to do with what I'm asking of DSA. Made in Canada, made in France made in Ching Ching's underpants, who gives a flying F@$# about the sticker on the box? Again I asked for the video DSA promised of them forging BLADES in house which happens to be in Canada. Again with the Albion!? Ok here's some Scientific fact for you buddy, Albion make their blades (CNC or not) in Wisconsin in their shop using their labor and tools. Why do I know this? Because they posted images and video of them doing so, we're featured as a segment on Discovery Channel's How it's Made, and because I know of numerous people who've walked into their shop and seen them work. Hell if I ever get to Wisconsin I'll probably do a tour too and check them out. Again not very grey, quite transparent if you ask me, ok D.A., can you say the same for DSA? NOPR didn't thinks so....
The speculation that DSA does not forge all their product lines on site is similarly 'grey' to the known fact that none of Albion's products are entirely hand made. Yes, we may be speculating here with this possible state of affairs, but the final irony is priceless - if this state of affairs were indeed true, you could buy a custom DSA which would be both made in Canada and forged onsite, but you still wouldn't be able to but a hand made sword from Albion. Rather quaint when we consider all the possibilities, especially since we're comparing typically sub-$500 swords that come with scabbards to $1000+ bare swords, wouldn't you agree? PHEW! Made it... OK again here's more "grey matter", guess I should've waited another sentence block... Rather than waist more time with this troll post I think I'll just say the one thing about both DSA and Albion again for like the fifth time that completely crumbles your political science whatever mumbo jumbo response is dictated on,CNC or not Albion Blades are in fact made in Wisconsin USA as we have hands on, video and images that prove this as fact. Do we have that of DSA? NO!?!? Hmmm, so what does DSA and Albion have in common on this subject? Oh nothing because one is a transparent manufacturer and the other is not!? Oh god the irony..... And no, I don't find a sword equaling the sub $300 quality of Windlass Hanwei or Legacy Arms (formerly Gen2) to be worth $500-$1000 compared to an extensively researched and designed USA made sword worth $500-$3000 pending model. So nope don't agree! Oh and on a personal note between you and me, thanks a million for completely ignoring my two full responses to your argument in this discussion. I'm glad you had the respect and maturity to reply to them in detail and thought like I have you. Rather than ignore them and post trolling single spaced replies that try and force a non-response and a weak sense of winning said argument when nobody in their right mind would read or reply to it. For that you're welcome ;00
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 19, 2017 14:03:52 GMT
He did get compensation though. That's one thing DSA is very good with in my experience, they respond quickly and sent a new sword to him (And to me in my case) very quickly. Presumably it's been holding up fine for him because he hasn't brought it up and as far as I know he still owns his two DSA swords By compensation I do not mean a new sword, I mean I would want my money back which I think is fair. Also what everyone seems to be missing is that this isn't a court of law, if anything it is a court of opinion. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. That is fine. I'm not attacking anyone for their opinion but in cases like this I am going to express my opinion. You don't have to like it but I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. If my opinion is wrong in your opinion that is fine but at the end of the day unless the argument is extremely persuasive I am not going to change my opinion. My opinion is based on both personal experience and vicarious experience over a number of years. I am pretty much a grumpy old man and I know what I like and what I think of companies that don't act in good faith, are not transparent and make spurious claims that they give no evidence for. This might be a terrible analogy but say someone was trying to sell you a Ferrari. On the outside it looked great and the dealer made all sorts of claims that seemed legitimate. Say you were so impressed by the car and the spiel that you bought the car. You drive the car for a few days and then you start to realise that things are not as they seem. On further inspection you find that the car is a "cut and shut" and that the claims of the dealer were all garbage. Are you going to give that dealer the time of day again? Are you going to still endorse and argue that oh it was just a lemon and he didn't know what it was? In my opinion DSA are a classic "cut and shut" not in the literal sense, they are not two swords cut up and welded together but those tangs and their claims make me extremely wary.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2017 14:16:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 14:18:55 GMT
it is weird that vendors and people have been banned for dubious unsubstantiated claims but these guys keep trucking along.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 14:33:23 GMT
There is a video on the net of a guy whose DSA breaks on a light cutting target and the way it breaks is ridiculous. Are you thinking of This?Havent EVER known of that video... i just put my remainig DSA Guardian on sale! That does it for me... and that in addition to all the other arglebargle - ridiculous! And dangerous!
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 19, 2017 15:06:14 GMT
it is weird that vendors and people have been banned for dubious unsubstantiated claims but these guys keep trucking along. Quite a simple answer, mate. Just look at the sword buyers guide store. You will have your answer to your question.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 19, 2017 15:12:54 GMT
There is a very simple way to answer some of these question, if you really want to. On their website in the Frequently Asked Questions it says that they do give tours of their facilities. If I didn't live so far away I would do it. We have a good number of Canadian members here why don't one of them do it. As for blades breaking we have seen that with several name brands, I had a Cold Steel break on me.
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Post by Derzis on Jan 19, 2017 16:08:15 GMT
No Gunnar, is not simple to answer the question. You have a producer who makes swords Limited Edition Series (Damascus blades that look very hand-forged in the pics provided by the site) and you have same producer selling everyswordenthusiast sword that is having the over-the-counter-blank blade look (based on same site pics). And they don't do just swords from what I've seen, but a lot of other things like knives, helmets that are forged or not. How you advertise your thing? The same way most companies are doing: pushing the high level qualities in your face and when you get to the counter you are asked if you read the small-letters note that it says the conditions to receive that quality. All this DSA thing is because there are no small-letters prints anywhere on the site. But are all the signs that are saying what the small-letters prints would have said. Where are made the blades? I bet the Damascus one are made in Canada. The rest, maybe Canada or maybe not. I don't care that much, I would be more interested in where was done the heat treatment. But nobody asked this and looks like the fault in some products is mostly a design issue and assembly issue - which as I said from the beginning of this topic is the producer's fault, regardless from where the blanks are coming for the low-cost lines.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jan 19, 2017 16:10:25 GMT
'For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.' Edit: Referencing the picture which doesn't show up in the quote, and not directed at Andi personally.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 19, 2017 16:56:10 GMT
it is weird that vendors and people have been banned for dubious unsubstantiated claims but these guys keep trucking along. I was under the impression those bans were for making claims that were proved to be false. DSA's claims have not yet been proven true or false. Now perhaps everyone in this thread should get together for a group hug. 
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 19, 2017 17:20:26 GMT
I said it would answer SOME of the questions like do they have a larger forge not just the two in the videos. Do they have a power hammer. You could watch them forging production blades not just custom ones and tempering them. You could see the swords being assembled and being flex tested. And if a delivery truck pulls up and unloads boxes full of blades with Chinese writing on the box, I think that would answer SOME questions too.. Oh, Scott forget the hug you're just not that cute.
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 19, 2017 17:27:37 GMT
I am touch averse, there will be no hugging.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2017 17:30:54 GMT
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