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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 5:12:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 7:13:40 GMT
I never knew babies could shell out 700$ for a sword that breaks when it's advertised as "battle ready". I don't know what it's like in where ever you are from, but even here in Canada, 700$ is a poo load to spend on a luxury item. Is it spoiled to expect the item to not break under regular use? Are you being paid by DSA to write this? THIS!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 7:17:03 GMT
Always looked like the typical, simple pakistamascus for me...
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 20, 2017 7:41:44 GMT
This collateral attack against Albion is so confusing to me. This is the quote off their website: In the first place, hand-made does not automatically mean forged. While a blank is indeed created through CNC, it is a very rough shape of what the final sword will become. It has no edge geometry, little, if at all distal taper, and has more than 120% of the total mass of the final blade. The meticulous grinding of that 20% is the hand-made portion. Any swordsmith will tell you that grinding is the bulk of the actual work, the most tiring, and the easiest to mess up. So skill at the grinder is skill with your hands that you can't just give to a random employee. You need expert grinders. Do I believe the sword is hand made? Yes, overall. That's why you get differences between different specimens of the same model. Albion simply reduced those differences to as little as they could by having uniform blanks to start the work with. Go ask Joe Waites or Angus Trim about how rough things start out of the CNC mill. Or even recently, our own Wes Beem stated that an Albion Moat blade was often around 70-80% done. And since Albion already does the heat treat and preliminary grinding, you could make a conjecture that the blanks are only 50% of the entire blade. Second, the premium you pay Albion goes into three things: R&D (in which it has no peer in the industry), in-house heat treat (possibly the most consistent heat treat in the industry, at least anecdotally), and costs from skilled labor in the US. Now we can argue all day if this leads to overprice on their part, but at least we have an idea where it goes. DSA? Not really. Take the Danish for instance. They had a design contest and one of our own won that (much savings on R&D). So why is it still quite expensive? Lastly, this is not about Albion's business practice, which quite frankly is as open and honest as you can get in the industry without removing a degree of hype and propaganda (proof is in the pudding: here are several articles on its site detailing as much of its process as it could albion-swords.com/sword-articles.htm, particularly albion-swords.com/swords-recreated.htm and albion-swords.com/swords-components.htm and albion-swords.com/articles/heat-treat.htm and albion-swords.com/swords-functional.htm and albion-swords.com/swords-functional2.htm and albion-swords.com/sword-testing.htm and... you get the idea. This is simply about DSA's lack of transparency. But comparing them to the most forthright production company out there is simply weird. A better comparison would be Windlass and Hanwei, or Valiant Armoury. Or maybe even KC or TFW, the latter of which has outrageous claims about their swords but have been proven to be nigh indestructible. Anyway let's not get sidetracked into an Albion-praising/bashing issue. Let's deal with that in another thread. This one is about DSA.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 7:51:57 GMT
Try derail this thread into some evasive Albion bashing is outrageously ridiculous; i wonder if anyone of these guys EVER held an Albion sword in hand!? Take one, practise with it, CUT with it... for crying out loud! And OF COURSE theyre handmade - ever looked at an Albion moat blade? LOTS of handiwork left to do... ASK WES!
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jan 20, 2017 12:57:24 GMT
If DSA is selling the same finished products as other retailers, and claiming to make their swords locally in Canada, it makes me think they might be engaging in deceptive trade practices. I found the link below, and thought it may be of interest to some of you.
www.consumerinformation.ca/eic/site/032.nsf/eng/00072.html
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Post by Afoo on Jan 20, 2017 19:02:38 GMT
If DSA is selling the same finished products as other retailers, and claiming to make their swords locally in Canada, it makes me think they might be engaging in deceptive trade practices. I found the link below, and thought it may be of interest to some of you.
www.consumerinformation.ca/eic/site/032.nsf/eng/00072.htmlPrevious post is incorrect. Here are updated facts fro the following: www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/03169.html#enG-2-1To be a product of Canada: "the last substantial transformation of the good occurred in Canada; and
all or virtually all (at least 98%) of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good have been incurred in Canada."OR "the last substantial transformation of the good occurred in Canada;
at least 51% of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good have been incurred in Canada; and
the "Made in Canada" representation is accompanied by an appropriate qualifying statement, such as "Made in Canada with imported parts" or "Made in Canada with domestic and imported parts". This could also include more specific information such as "Made in Canada with 60% Canadian content and 40% imported content"."It would depend on the specific wording on their website. Not saying anythings up - those are the facts as I have them. Note that the third guideline "[...] accompanied by an appropriate qualifying statement [...]" appears to be often overlooked, or at least not heavily enforced, as shown here canadabusiness.ca/blog/can-you-really-claim-that-your-product-is-made-in-canada-1/, potentially resulting in "made in canada" products in which 49% of the cost is incurred in Canada In this case, "cost" refers to all costs of materials and labour. They generally do NOT refer to overhead costs, unless those costs can be reasonably allocated to the cost of producing or manufacturing. These costs may include brokerage and shipping fees for components etc
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 20, 2017 19:41:53 GMT
No one is attacking Albion or any other company here just trying to point out the double standards here. Okay for one company but not for another. A while back someone posted a thread on his Valiant Armory sword breaking under the exact same conditions, light cutting and I believe it was also water bottles. But he said Sonny apologized and made good on the problem so he was happy. Everyone here said rah-rah Sonny for his great customer service. Well the exact same thing happened in this video of the DSA sword breaking and DSA handled it the same way Sonny did and the customer was also happy but you want to burn DSA to the ground for it. There can't be double standards if we are going to be fair here. We're suppose to guide not brainwash.
And before someone accuses me of attacking Valiant Armory, I have always recommeded VA swords and know Sonny is a great guy to work with. But fair is fair.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 21:18:15 GMT
The breaking of that blade wasnt the main subject of this thread... only the cream on top!
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 21, 2017 0:26:58 GMT
No one is attacking Albion or any other company here just trying to point out the double standards here. Okay for one company but not for another. A while back someone posted a thread on his Valiant Armory sword breaking under the exact same conditions, light cutting and I believe it was also water bottles. But he said Sonny apologized and made good on the problem so he was happy. Everyone here said rah-rah Sonny for his great customer service. Well the exact same thing happened in this video of the DSA sword breaking and DSA handled it the same way Sonny did and the customer was also happy but you want to burn DSA to the ground for it. There can't be double standards if we are going to be fair here. We're suppose to guide not brainwash. And before someone accuses me of attacking Valiant Armory, I have always recommeded VA swords and know Sonny is a great guy to work with. But fair is fair. . Well H/Ts have broken. Heck even Albions have broken before (though the one I remember was from heavy, abusive use). Again, that wasn't the issue. It started with the fact that when taken apart, DSAs had extremely shoddy construction (bad tangs, misaligned everything, fake peens). This led to a (repeat) discussion on whether DSA import their blades or make/forge them in house, which led to the main issue: are they lying or not?
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 21, 2017 0:52:02 GMT
But it became part of the issue when someone posted the video. You can't say look at this then say but lets not talk about it anymore. Once the can of worms is open so to speak.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jan 21, 2017 1:04:22 GMT
But it became part of the issue when someone posted the video. You can't say look at this then say but lets not talk about it anymore. Once the can of worms is open so to speak. If we want to talk about it sure! All swords break, but DSAs break far more.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 21, 2017 1:21:01 GMT
Well to be honest this is the first one I've seen, the rest were just hearsay. Not saying there weren't any others but this is the only one I've seen. I never put a lot of value in a " someone told me that someone told him that this happened ". Show them to me and then I will believe it.
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Post by Afoo on Jan 21, 2017 2:20:57 GMT
But it became part of the issue when someone posted the video. You can't say look at this then say but lets not talk about it anymore. Once the can of worms is open so to speak. With all due respect, I think we can. Being a sabre collector, I have no interest in DSA. From what I read however, there are three main issues with DSA. In order of concern they are: - DSA lies about where they get their products or at least misleads the public in terms of the manufacturing process - DSA stuff is fragile and breaks, even when advertised as being battle ready - DSA stuff is over priced for what they are relative to VA or Albion The veracity of one of these claims does not effect the veracity of any other. If the claim that DSA stuff is fragile is found to be false, or at the very least too subjective to make a judgement without further evidence, then great, but the other criticisms stand to be evaluated and discussed independently. Frankly, I think the last two claims are so subjective that we may never come to a conclusion. This is not the first time its been discussed, and it will continue to come up until someone does a more vigorous scientific comparison. The claim about their manufacturing practices is much more concrete and, to me, of greater interest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 5:28:20 GMT
Two more things:
i once had two swords here of that "Nomad" type - one was purchased from KOA, one bought here in Germany at a Medieval Fair. One has a DSA "makers" mark, one has not! Guess what, they look exactly alike! They handled alike, they flexed alike... well the price at KOA was some 450,- USD or so, while i got the other for 99,- Euros! This ones still here.. i make some pics. I mailed some pics to Eyal, and he was all "Oh, rip-off, oh, bad people"... A long time ago i showed here pics off a website who sells decorative weapons... and they had the WHOLE "DSA" line for 99,- to 129,- EUR (without scabbards to be fair)!
The other point is - i hope i find that old email - that cool Ryan guy from KOA personally said to me in that mail when i complained on that sword that its always the same issues with them - mainly twisted, bent blades, misaligned fullers, bad scratching etc. etc. He also agreed that the swords are not peened in the "usual" way...
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 21, 2017 6:16:51 GMT
"This collateral attack against Albion is so confusing to me."
*Sighs* it was not my intent to attack Albion. It was my intent to show one of the posters that I apply my standards across the board when I am considering purchasing a weapon. I was showing that yes I hold DSA in low regard for very good reason but that I also don't much like Albion. I don't think Albion are shady or don't act in good faith I just think a few things that I pointed out are off about Albion. I haven't seen a Valiant break, any link or citation to this? I have my reasons for being put off about Albion but it is not worth bringing up as it is my personal experience, only one other person was there and it was a long time ago and lemons exist but shouldn't at that price range.
Afoo: you forgot the tang issue that is coming to light and the seeming lie that it was an "apprentice" grinding the tangs down too far. If it were only one or two cases I might buy it but 5 cases? 10 cases? How many cases and examples do we need before we say "hang on, what is going on here? What is the truth here?"
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Post by Afoo on Jan 21, 2017 6:28:58 GMT
Afoo: you forgot the tang issue that is coming to light and the seeming lie that it was an "apprentice" grinding the tangs down too far. If it were only one or two cases I might buy it but 5 cases? 10 cases? How many cases and examples do we need before we say "hang on, what is going on here? What is the truth here?" I would lump that into the category of "their products suck". Anyways, my intent was not to produce a categorical list of all complains or praise we have for DSA - but rather to emphasize the fact that all arguments must be considered on their own merits individually. Just because one of the criticisms is not true and/or difficult to prove (and I am not saying any are) does not mean you can dismiss all others. If we want to be scientific you would need to have a list of all complaints, combined with all people who have had good experiences to find the failure rate. Then do the same for VA and all other manufacturers. Correct for any biases (perhaps ppl who buy DSA are more likely to do abusive tests vs those who buy albion - who knows). Just giving a failure rate without the corresponding success rate makes me uneasy. I don't necessarily disagree, but presenting our collective experiences in this manner would be really the only way to make a conclusive statement beyond just hearsay and anecdote. Its fine to present anecdotes as evidence, but they must come with a grain of salt. That applies to positive and negative experiences as well. The scientist within me wants to start up a poll like you see on consumer reports, tracking the "reliability" of all the different makes of swords to see which ones really do fail most often etc.
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Post by vinland on Jan 21, 2017 6:32:25 GMT
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 21, 2017 6:46:33 GMT
Problem with the post is he doesn't specify what kind of bamboo he was trying to cut all he says is that he made ten cuts on bamboo. Also from what he says he is a kendoka so how good was his edge alignment? There are a lot of variables here we aren't being told.
Correct me if I'm wrong but edge alignment isn't an aspect of kendo training is it? You can't just pick up a western sword and expect to use kendo techniques to cut with it. Again, if I am wrong in what he is saying correction is appreciated.
Further, a well constructed sword should not require any type of welding of furniture and I personally wouldn't buy a sword that had such construction techniques.
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Post by vinland on Jan 21, 2017 7:08:42 GMT
I don't know anything about this particular break, I just found it on a quick search on google. The welding was done to help prevent rattling due to large gaps in the guard. It doesn't sound like it's a problem any more.
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