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Post by demonking on Jun 21, 2016 16:33:09 GMT
i was wondering how would a knife user defend himself against a sword user. i understand it would be hard due to range.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 21, 2016 18:41:06 GMT
Throw the knife in the sword guy's face and run away. Or better, keep the knife and run away.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 21, 2016 19:49:57 GMT
Unless it's a really big knife, about the same as an unarmed person defending themselves against a sword. It's easier if wearing armour (as one might have been on a battlefield when one's sword breaks).
This - unarmed/knife against sword - is the core scenario that aikido is built around. Get out of the way of the attack, close, throw, pin, and then go to work with the knife.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 2:25:36 GMT
When you start looking at someone with X weapon against someone else with Y, it helps to start by looking at how each weapon is used. The thing that people trip over here is that the range is an issue for both fighters. The man with a knife or dagger has a certain distance that works to his advantage, as does the person with the longer sword. There's a point where the longer reach becomes a liability, you just have to get yourself to that place.
If you are the one with the knife, then entering will be key. That puts the other man in your playground. Crowd him in and use the fact that you can manipulate in a tighter space than he can to your advantage. He's going to want to keep you at a particular distance. Spend some time learning how to recognize what path the attack is likely to take - whether you go straight in, or slightly to one side or the other is going to matter a lot and will be critical. If you know where he is and where he is likely to go you can exploit that.
This obviously has to be simplified, because there are always things that can be done at various ranges. A swordsman is not going to be rendered helpless just because you are standing on top of him.
Ultimately, you just have to train. Work with and against whatever weapons you have available, learning how to use them effectively allows you to start thinking about how to deny your opponent from doing so, and likewise how to counter their attempts to thwart you. It's fun stuff.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2016 3:22:50 GMT
Be the guy with the sword.
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Post by newfoundviking on Jun 22, 2016 4:00:54 GMT
Yes, be the guy with the sword. So many more options.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jun 22, 2016 5:48:43 GMT
Let yourself be stabbed with the sword in a non-fatal spot, then stab the sucker on the face and neck as many times as you can.
/moviesolution
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jun 22, 2016 15:31:07 GMT
This - unarmed/knife against sword - is the core scenario that aikido is built around. Get out of the way of the attack, close, throw, pin, and then go to work with the knife. I agree with Timo Nieminen... Aikido has several kata that deal with defending from sword attacks. Move out of the way, defend, throw/pin, and end it. Aside from that, like mentioned before by others, if you can, leave the situation. If you can't, then defend yourself to the best of your ability.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 22, 2016 16:51:19 GMT
Here is my neighbour and me horsing around. Obviously I am out of practice having lost my sparring partner some years back. The video will give some idea. It was the first and only time for us at this and he was hesitant at first if he should really try to hit me, as can be seen. At one point I applied too much pressure and took him down with him pulling me. My neighbour has maybe 100 lb on me. The quillion also works fine as can be seen when I accidently connected with it.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 22, 2016 17:06:12 GMT
Thanks for the vid. I do have some issues with it though.
First you start way to close, in dagger range. That's exactly what the sword guy wants to avoid. Secondly, that "block" is really, really risky. You only have a very small area to accept his blade with, seeing as you have a short blade to begin with and grip the tip as well. If you misjudge or, indeed, the sword guy just changes the direction of his stroke a tiny little bit to either side, your hand is gone, similarly if it bounces from the blade to either side after you have made contact. I am in general not a fan of blocking motions but especially so with a knife against a sword.
Of course, the sword guy in the vid really telegraphed and such but it is obvious that he is a beginner so that is beside the point. Naturally, your block would be much harder against someone who hits faster and without warning but that alone is not necessarily a reason something can't work. In this case though, as I wrote further up, I don't think it would be too an idea to do it this way.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 22, 2016 18:01:47 GMT
Chenessfan you are asking for guarantees, they do not exist. There will always be that big “IF...”. If I had my rathers I’d rather not fight under any condition. And I recommend that to anyone. I don’t think it would be realistic for me to think I could call time out while I go home for something that would trump my opponent’s weapon. At 76 I’ve had my share of combat and while I would like to think skill got my out of tights the truth is I’ve been lucky as hell. Two of those “discussions” involved a knife and stupid me didn’t bring one to the fight.
As far as starting in dagger range, I prefer to think of that as starting “in frame range” of the camera as I had no cameraman to adjust. If I had started at a greater distance I would have closed in a heartbeat. The video was meant to give some idea of what could be done and not a bible of “how to”.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 18:05:04 GMT
The video is on a good track. The initial distancing is an issue, as bridging the distance really is the majority of the challenge here. My usual convention is to have both people out of reach of each other, that doesn't mean everyone has to do it that way, but it gives you both something to work on.
You do the best you can with the equipment and training partners you have. I'm trying to help get a friend of my own up to speed and there's a challenge so I can relate there but you shouldn't let it deter you. Ideally both people are training, and he is working on giving you the best he can so you have something to work with.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 22, 2016 19:16:55 GMT
Chenessfan you are asking for guarantees, they do not exist. There will always be that big “IF...”. If I had my rathers I’d rather not fight under any condition. And I recommend that to anyone. I don’t think it would be realistic for me to think I could call time out while I go home for something that would trump my opponent’s weapon. At 76 I’ve had my share of combat and while I would like to think skill got my out of tights the truth is I’ve been lucky as hell. Two of those “discussions” involved a knife and stupid me didn’t bring one to the fight. As far as starting in dagger range, I prefer to think of that as starting “in frame range” of the camera as I had no cameraman to adjust. If I had started at a greater distance I would have closed in a heartbeat. The video was meant to give some idea of what could be done and not a bible of “how to”. Of course there are no guarantees. But there are techniques that are more likely to work and those more likely to get you killed. I personally think the demonstrated two-handed block with the dagger is one of the latter. I have written to why I think that in my last post. I hear you on the camera issue, didn't consider that... zooming out would have solved that problem (if possible) though it would have made things a bit harder to see due to the greater distance. So I get your point. The "closing in" indeed is the really tricky part here, as Jon Frances said. It's really not so simple to just close in in a heartbeat. But I think you know that. Still, I feel it should be pointed out when making such a vid, otherwise a flawed idea of how the scenario discussed here evolves is created.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jun 22, 2016 20:27:44 GMT
The annual charity event at the Phoenix Society includes a mixed weapon tournament. Participants roll a die before each match to determine which weapon they will use. The six weapons were assigned something like this: 1. dagger, 2. sickle, 3. messer or saber, 4. sword/buckler, 5. longsword and 6. spear. The dagger vs. spear bouts were always interesting because they were all about speed. The dagger vs. longsword were tough, but if you watch the following video from this year's event, at 10:15 you will see an example of dagger winning over longsword. And the person wielding the longsword was, of course, not a willing victim Note: Richard Marsden and John Patterson were judging the tournament and I was keeping score at the table.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 22:02:49 GMT
nicely done there. I am not really a fan of how he is initially holding the weapon, but he makes it work and heck maybe that's how you're supposed to use it.
I like how he catches the sword's edge and can ride in directly. He's offline and the blade is checked so the point is no longer a threat, and because he maintains structure he can shear the edge offline or prevent cuts. Due to the size of the weapon, it would take too long to circumnavigate and counter cut, and it would create a ton of openings for the dagger if the swordsman were to try.
Swordsman's best hope at that point was to either utilize the pommel or crossguard, or realize he's in empty hand distance and start playing that game.
Illustrates the point that this is not a foregone loss for the shorter weapon, although the swordsman clearly did not take his opponent seriously by handing him the centerline with a phoned in initial cut.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 23, 2016 0:45:40 GMT
The sword has the advantage and no one would willingly choose a knife in a sword fight. However, there may be no choice such as the sword breaking. Not only does a sword have the greater reach but has a distinct weight advantage giving it a good chance of crashing through the lighter knife when blocking with a one hand hold, or if you will, with one pivot point. Your choice, depend on blocking that incoming sword blade with one hand and hope that it doesn’t crash through, which it may well do, while holding the other safely behind you or making a rigid barrier with both hands and hoping that your training will stop the incoming blade cold giving a few hundred milliseconds to counter. Both have advantages/disadvantages. It is important not to grasp the blade thereby exposing the fingers, but keeping the off hand behind the blade. Again there are no guarantees. The fellow in the video did good and shows it can be done adding credibility to my video.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 2:41:17 GMT
I do get reinforcing the block with the second hand, you see something like that all over the place. Take your standard half-sword grip, rotate the sword 90 degrees, there you go reinforced block. It looked awkward to me seeing him starting from that position with the small blade, that's all. Maybe it doesn't matter. I have no issue with using both hands, or the way that dagger was controlling the sword - mechanically sound.
You really do want to have some reinforcement, whether that's from bracing the weapon with another hand, or positioning your body and posture to better resist and dissipate the incoming force. Also by intercepting you can stifle some of the power, basically choke it off before he completes the arc of the strike and take some of the bite out. It can make a big difference in terms of the shock you receive from the impact.
And yes, you want to make sure you're putting your weapon where you need it to be. With a small area, the tolerances get a lot tighter and being off a little means he is hitting your fingers / hands which is not even a little pleasant if he's attacking with any conviction.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 23, 2016 3:52:35 GMT
A knife with a blade shorter than 12", especially without much of a handguard, is too small to parry with. You'd be forced to intercept the swordsman's arm, not his blade, and that means getting into close range. I would think that of the blade arts, an Arnis guy would have the best skillset for getting up into a swordsman's business and countering him with only a knife. Block and trap the weapon arm, destroy. I think that no matter who you are, though, you'd be very lucky to survive a sword fight with only a knife.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 23, 2016 6:54:37 GMT
It only worked in that video because the sword guy attacked with a ridiculously slow cut that lacked any intend. In fact, he didn't really attack at all, his first cut was short and then he just left the sword there in a hanging guard. Don't get me wrong, the dagger guy did good, he chose the perfect moment to close in and succeeded. I'm not saying it can't be done... but it relies on your opponent really screwing up. Had the sword guy just attacked properly (to the hands for example, they were right there in perfect striking distance!), it would have been over real quick.
I personally don't think one should try to go for a block. Too risky with such a short blade. I would try to evade an attack and then close in or possibly deflect a blow, but not outright block the sword. Evading blow is very difficult as well if the other guy knows what he is doing but I feel it's less setting myself up for having my hands cut off the way it will happen if someone properly cuts at/into a two-handed knife-block.
If you are really quick or the other guy is telegraphing like crazy, you could move in before sword is accelerated towards you. In that case you would block the opponent's arm. That I can see working.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 13:04:57 GMT
Well blocking a longer weapon with a shorter weapon even one handed is absolutely possible, I spent a significant amount of time working that out with a tanto against katana, and had the poor thing repolished. I didn't film the technique but I have a video somewhere of what a year or so of doing that looked like - you don't chew up properly heat treated W2 steel like that by receiving feeble tippy-taps, these were fully committed attacks. Once or twice the structure wasn't there and I got the side of my own blade bounced of my dome. That's why I always got a chuckle out of the (I think it was) Jigen Ryu quote that their cross symbol was the two blades being crushed into someone's head - I can totally see that if you've got a powerful cut and the other person tries to stop it with a lousy block.
You set it up so the other guy runs into a wall. It just happens to be a very small wall so you better place it where it has to be.
This was two handed sword strike being received by single-handed tanto. It's angles, structure, and positioning.
Whether you _should_ block or not isn't really the point, you should either get away or deter them from attacking, and if necessary get in there and end it directly, but you _can_ block, you just need to do it in a mechanically and technically sound way.
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