|
Post by Derzis on Jun 24, 2016 14:36:44 GMT
What makes you think you will get stabbed before slashed/cut? If the guy wants to keep his advantage will never stab but slash. At least is how I would do. Keeping the sword in motion and cutting you 1000 times before stabbing you once. That's too logical for a movie. Nope, I see no reason to stab someone when I have length advantage. Unless the sword I use is a rapier.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Jun 24, 2016 14:38:23 GMT
A knee on your face or a punch with the empty hand when the sword guy sees you bending forward will make the tackling worthless. I'd worry more about the sword than a fist or knee. Sidestep to avoid the tackle and a cut would ruin your day. (Knee to face can work as takedown defence, but IMO better to stop the takedown first (e.g., sprawl), and then knee them.) I think you didn't get it. The knee or the punch was done by the guy with the sword when you were going for tackle.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Jun 24, 2016 14:40:52 GMT
What makes you think you will get stabbed before slashed/cut? If the guy wants to keep his advantage will never stab but slash. At least is how I would do. Keeping the sword in motion and cutting you 1000 times before stabbing you once. You seem to be under the impression that he was actually advocating this tactic. I'd check that assumption. 😂 When he is proposing to get stabbed in a 'safe' area and use his knife after that, is close to advocating that tactic. He thought about it, he imagined the best option and he decided is the best answer he can write.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 24, 2016 21:54:04 GMT
I'd worry more about the sword than a fist or knee. Sidestep to avoid the tackle and a cut would ruin your day. (Knee to face can work as takedown defence, but IMO better to stop the takedown first (e.g., sprawl), and then knee them.) I think you didn't get it. The knee or the punch was done by the guy with the sword when you were going for tackle. I think you didn't get it. A knee or punch doesn't reliably stop a tackle (see UFC for many examples); a failed knee guarantees that the takedown works. OTOH, sidestepping and cutting will reliably stop a tackle, and doesn't take longer. If the swordsman is good enough to be ready for the tackle, and spot the tackle coming early enough to react, at least give them credit for being smart enough to use their most effective weapon.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Arias on Jun 25, 2016 2:59:56 GMT
There is not much point to this because it depends on the person. Its like saying "if I have a gun and you have your bare hands will I win?" That depends on my ability to act and the other person.
A friend of mine fought 4 of us as once using a tanto us using choken and guess what? We all lost. But he was the US chanbara champion for years. Depending on the skill level of the user there is no disadvantage to him for having the shorter weapon. He moved in fast parrying and cutting vital areas. His action was faster than our reactions. Also if someone is good at combative distances and timing they are more dangerous. I get killed quite often fighting against a Yari, but mostly because in various competition settings I am not allowed to grab the spear shaft. In self defense mode there are ways around the reach of it.
Its why I love midevil euro schools that spar they learned fighting the way I did. I ask my sensei "can you fight 4 people at once?" The response "can you?"
Michael Janech said something like "if you don't build the box you wont have to think outside of it". When you really know your own skills and fighting preference you won't have to ask impossible endless loop questions.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jun 25, 2016 14:07:08 GMT
A "knife" really needs to be defined as a blade too small to allow a block or parry with confidence. Or else short sword techniques are applicable. The sword needs to be a longsword, so that techniques maximising it's range need to be bypassed.
That said, using a longsword is so counter-intuitive that if two complete novices were to fight, one with a sword and the other a knife, the knifeman should usually win, as the use of a knife is an enhancement to our innate fighting abilities as clever apes. The sword is bound to flummox.
Experienced fighters will know the knifeman needs to close in, the swordsman needs to maintain a distance. If the swordsman knows how to maintain distance whilst striking repetitively and quickly, she will always win.
A prelim to the fight should have the swordsman examine the ground to ensure that the feet do not become entangled during the retreating strikes, two or three strikes should do it against a knifeman fighting for their life.
I would approach and strike from hasso (sorry I don't know the euro word for that guard) and strike down to chudan (middle guard) and then straight back to hasso and strike again etc. Retreating by two steps (right then left foot) as I delivered each strike. I would use a square on stance to allow sidestepping if necessary. I would use crossing footwork during the "retreat".
As for knifeman tactics, given that blocks and parries are not safe, I think the only tactic is to rush in as quickly as possible when the approaching swordsman is in between one and two steps of striking range and hope to catch him mid-step (as planned) and/or travel through the first cut to get into grappling and stabbing. Given that the the sword's approaching stance should be square-on, this tactic could probably be bypassed easily with a sidestep, but there are really limited options outside of quitting.
IMO.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 15:33:55 GMT
This is actually a really fun topic, I want to throw some ideas on the table. I think my friend should be available tomorrow. Here's a photo of the trainer we'll use next to it's real counterpart. It's 4.5 inches, will that suffice? This obviously won't be definitive but I think we can show a few ideas. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jun 25, 2016 15:37:04 GMT
This is actually a really fun topic, I want to throw some ideas on the table. I think my friend should be available tomorrow. Here's a photo of the trainer we'll use next to it's real counterpart. It's 4.5 inches, will that suffice? This obviously won't be definitive but I think we can show a few ideas. Go for it. What can possibly go wrong?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 15:59:09 GMT
Awesome, my thoughts too. I admire pgandy for putting something out, it gives us something to look at and chat about. I'm not against discussing theoreticals (obviously!) but having a frame of reference might be useful.
Will do some thinking about what to present. It is going to be knife and katana. He's got the bugei hickory bokken with 30 blade / 15 handle so there's clearly a size difference!
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jun 25, 2016 16:24:05 GMT
I respect that too. Which strategies were you thinking of testing?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 17:29:45 GMT
Everything is going to be based off of entering in on him without getting cut / stabbed - if the best I can hope for is taking the other guy down with me then so be it, but that's not really desirable.
I'd like to see if I can work out ways to get him tangled up, either by checking his sword or by catching / controlling his center, Ive got a couple things in mind but I want to try to keep this somewhat raw looking and visceral rather than a kata I work out on the fly - you can make anything work in choreography so the challenge is going to be to come up with something neat that isn't absurd and gives us something to tear apart later when I share it. Hopefully I can get him to make good attacks to head off the "well he isn't even trying!" arguments. So we'll see how it goes.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jun 25, 2016 19:58:52 GMT
I think you didn't get it. A knee or punch doesn't reliably stop a tackle (see UFC for many examples); a failed knee guarantees that the takedown works. OTOH, sidestepping and cutting will reliably stop a tackle, and doesn't take longer. If the swordsman is good enough to be ready for the tackle, and spot the tackle coming early enough to react, at least give them credit for being smart enough to use their most effective weapon. I would like to add that the UFC is a poor source for what works against a tackle and what doesn't due to their rules. The back is an area you aren't allowed to attack intentionally so someone ducking and going for your legs makes it hard to counter. Once you are on the ground, kicks or knees to the face aren't allowed and you are considered on the ground if one of your knees is touching so that means if he goes on one knee in an attempt to to do a take-down the UFC doesn't even allow you to kick or knee the target that is right in front of you. Also, no join small manipulation is allowed. The rules for UFC favor jujitsu type styles. I was taught to deal with tackles in ways that the UFC doesn't allow. Everything is going to be based off of entering in on him without getting cut / stabbed - if the best I can hope for is taking the other guy down with me then so be it, but that's not really desirable. I'd like to see if I can work out ways to get him tangled up, either by checking his sword or by catching / controlling his center, Ive got a couple things in mind but I want to try to keep this somewhat raw looking and visceral rather than a kata I work out on the fly - you can make anything work in choreography so the challenge is going to be to come up with something neat that isn't absurd and gives us something to tear apart later when I share it. Hopefully I can get him to make good attacks to head off the "well he isn't even trying!" arguments. So we'll see how it goes. I've done my share of knife vs sword fights and I can say that it is doable but the knife guy generally has to be much more skilled than the sword guy or at least do stuff the sword guy hasn't seen before and doesn't know how to react to. The knife guy also has to have very good reactions and has to be able to keep calm. One false jerking motion and it's over. One thing you might consider is using the knife to stick to a missed swing and cut once you get close enough. Stickiness is very useful against longer weapons in my experience but I have developed a fondness of stickiness and the feelings you can get from it through chi sao.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jun 25, 2016 20:56:02 GMT
Everything is going to be based off of entering in on him without getting cut / stabbed - if the best I can hope for is taking the other guy down with me then so be it, but that's not really desirable. I'd like to see if I can work out ways to get him tangled up, either by checking his sword or by catching / controlling his center, Ive got a couple things in mind but I want to try to keep this somewhat raw looking and visceral rather than a kata I work out on the fly - you can make anything work in choreography so the challenge is going to be to come up with something neat that isn't absurd and gives us something to tear apart later when I share it. Hopefully I can get him to make good attacks to head off the "well he isn't even trying!" arguments. So we'll see how it goes. I think that a knife survival strategy from the sword's basic retreating shomen uchi, as i described earlier, should be attempted first, as this is the most basic attack/fail/attack strategy that all kenjutsuka learn when they are practicing uchidachi. If the knife can't survive that, then everything else is academic, as the basic (retreating) shomen uchi is the obvious sword strategy.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 25, 2016 21:33:03 GMT
I think you didn't get it. A knee or punch doesn't reliably stop a tackle (see UFC for many examples); a failed knee guarantees that the takedown works. OTOH, sidestepping and cutting will reliably stop a tackle, and doesn't take longer. If the swordsman is good enough to be ready for the tackle, and spot the tackle coming early enough to react, at least give them credit for being smart enough to use their most effective weapon. I would like to add that the UFC is a poor source for what works against a tackle and what doesn't due to their rules. The back is an area you aren't allowed to attack intentionally so someone ducking and going for your legs makes it hard to counter. Once you are on the ground, kicks or knees to the face aren't allowed and you are considered on the ground if one of your knees is touching so that means if he goes on one knee in an attempt to to do a take-down the UFC doesn't even allow you to kick or knee the target that is right in front of you. Also, no join small manipulation is allowed. The rules for UFC favor jujitsu type styles. OTOH, UFC allows a great variety of takedowns, including tackles, which many rulesets don't allow, or at least there is no chance of scoring points. While some fighters will go to one knee in a takedown attempt, that isn't really a tackle (which closes a lot of ground quickly), and many fighters will try tackles ungrounded. E.g., Sherk ate multiple knees to the face (which hit) attempting such, and wasn't KOed by them. I've seen people argue that UFC rules take out the "killer" techniques against tackles - e.g., downward elbow to back of head/neck. Early UFCs allowed those, and they didn't reliably stop takedowns (or kill people). But that's rather beside the point, because the rules haven't disallowed a punch or knee to the face during a takedown attempt (in the absence of "grounded"). I was taught to deal with tackles in ways that the UFC doesn't allow. That might or might not be relevant. Are they things you would do if you had a sword in your hand(s)? If you had a sword in your hand(s), and somebody tried to tackle you, what do you think would be the best counter?
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jun 26, 2016 0:58:43 GMT
Those are valid points. Many fighting systems don't allow for them at all. I'm not referring to the killer ones so much as the "dirty" ones. I was taught to live for now, deal with the consequences later. That, of course, only applies in life or death but yeah. The UFC does allow more than a lot of other organized fighting and I will give it that. I also acknowledge that the rules, even if ever so slightly, does assist those who attempt take-downs by providing them with a little extra safety. I'm not saying take-downs and tackles are easy to stop or ineffective, on the contrary, they are very strong and useful when they are done by someone who knows how, just that there is a slight advantage with the UFC rule-set. People simultaneously seem to over and underestimate the power of a single blow at times.
As for what I would do if someone tried to tackle me with a knife and I had a sword, it depends on the distance. If they started the tackle from a few steps away and they attempted to tackle me, I would of course cut them down. If they came in close skillfully, I'm not sure. That is more of a situational reaction. However, the likelihood of them getting in that close to start with is slim since I've dealt with that kind of thing enough that I'm not going to be caught off guard by whatever they are going to do. It is also my philosophy to never enter or let someone enter my range without a plan of action.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Jun 26, 2016 8:38:04 GMT
This is actually a really fun topic, I want to throw some ideas on the table. I think my friend should be available tomorrow. Here's a photo of the trainer we'll use next to it's real counterpart. It's 4.5 inches, will that suffice? This obviously won't be definitive but I think we can show a few ideas. I will be looking forward to that. One disadvantage that I see with such a small 4.5” blade is that for me a take-away is much harder to execute. You will notice that the first 2 demos I made in my video involved taking away. I thought the 2nd had impart failed until I watched it in slow motion and saw that the sword was hung up between us for a moment but was out of his hand. I say disadvantage but each weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to know these and how to use them. I hope that you will video your event as it should prove interesting and am glad that you are doing this.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 2:19:16 GMT
Hey guys, quick update. We did get together and despite us both being pretty gassed from the weekend we pulled about 40 minutes of footage. After a quick edit 10 minutes were pure trash so I cut that. Even still 30 minutes feels pretty indulgent so I'm going to keep trimming here and try to get something that won't be a complete waste of time. There were quite a few mistakes which is to be expected given the material and especially since our preparation consisted of me going "Hey Kevin you busy tomorrow?".
Once I get the rest in some semblance of presentability, I'll update the thread. This is definitely just two guys at the park, so if you're expecting an embu then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Jun 27, 2016 19:41:51 GMT
In all honesty jon, knowing how the internet seems to work, i would be hesitant to post a video of me training, or in this case working through a scenario.
I think it would be brave, and useful for this micro-discussion, to post it. If you do post it then get ready to delete it, quickly, if the critiques start becoming destructive, or in any case after about a week. It's not worth the mither of having to defend it long-term, imo.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 20:18:55 GMT
I read you loud and clear. I will share it, I feel like my friend and I put in a solid effort. I don't like endless disclaimers, but I think what we whipped out is a start. I long ago accepted that you can't please everyone. I cut most of the really silly stuff, there's still enough to chuckle at. If we polish some of what we're illustrating it will be much nicer looking with time effort and repetition. You know, training. This really was "ok man grab your sword and let's see what shakes out".
We could have picked two or three things, hammered them, and posted something slick and polished. This is kind of raw.
I got it down to 16 minutes which still feels kind of long but it's tighter than the 30 we had last night. Hopefully the upload \ processing doesn't take all night, once I get home I'll kick it off.
In the meanwhile, we did about 40 minutes on Sunday, got a total of 183 "plays". 80 were useful for demonstrating that it is possible, different variations and quite a bit of repetition because we were just running through without a master plan or script. The 103 that got scrapped were either being caught flat footed, evading the cut but not counter attacking, lousy attacks, just plain old miscellaneous mistakes, or scuffles that went on too long without being decisive.
I trimmed those remaining 80 down to 16 minutes, cutting some of the more dubious stuff, trimming our stupid banter, and got rid of the most repetitive stuff. I hope it sparks some ideas, and people can find a little interest and some amusement.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Jun 27, 2016 21:50:04 GMT
I'm more curious as to how you'd go at it personally than I am if it is correct or not. More along the lines of wanting to see other people's thoughts in comparison to mine. Even if you decide not to post it, for pure curiosity, I would at least like to see your attempts. I promise anything I say about it would be discussion based and not criticism based.
|
|