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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 2:04:22 GMT
OK! It’s finally up. That took Forever. First things first: THIS IS NOT A DEMONSTRATION OF ANY RYU. ANY RESEMBLANCE TO WAZA OR PROPRIETARY TECHNIQUE IS COINCIDENTAL AND NOT A CONSCIOUS DECISION. We did our best to make sure we weren’t representing anything other than ourselves having a little fun.
There are some things to talk about for sure. I’ll keep a watch but try not to respond for a couple of days to give people a chance after all of the hoopla.
I should put a disclaimer that I’m dropping a bit of casual profanity here and there, happens when I get excited. I did my best to beep it out with a dumb censored MP3, balancing volume and all that. Sound is not necessary. I’m not sure how well the audio even works unless you’re using headphones (my macbook’s audio is wildly inconsistent so I just let it do it’s own thing). I don’t think we really say anything that isn’t obvious, maybe a couple of semi-humorous things if you share our goofy sense of humor, but if it might offend you then you won’t really miss anything by muting it. I cut most of the chatter except some stuff that I thought was dumb/funny enough to keep, and tend to “speak with my hands” anyway so you should be able to follow the thought process.
So here it is in all it’s ugly unpolished splendor.
Thanks to those of you who watch it, and whether you like it or hate it there’s nothing personal. This isn’t ryu stuff, this is just fun at the park and working through a thought exercise.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 28, 2016 4:05:16 GMT
Cool video! Never underestimate the knife. Not if you have a longsword. Not if you have a handgun. Not if you have a howitzer.
In real life the knife guy can just stab the other fellow in the back. It's the staged setting that features both parties facing each other at the ready. But even if both are at the ready, it's a mistake to assume the party with a longsword is *going* to win. If he cuts or thrusts at long measure, seeking to use his advantage in reach, the knife armed party can move out of measure or deflect the weak. If the longsword party attacks in closer measure to prevent this, he's exposed to the knife's thrust and the parry of a hand. Remember the man with the knife has a second weapon--his HAND. It can absolutely win a fight if used properly.
The cut generally requires you to move closer than the thrust. And the closer you are, the less of an advantage your reach is over a dagger-armed opponent. While I haven't fought much with dagger vs. longsword, I've neutralized longswords with a wee tiny buckler many times. There's no reason the knife couldn't do this as well. Though it's a bit tricky, it could work. The smart swordsman would probably just attack the hands.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Jun 28, 2016 4:45:40 GMT
The thing is that not all styles cut with the whole monouchi. We were taught tip cuts many a times. The philosophy is that a couple inches into the neck or other deadly area was all that was necessary to kill so if you needed to, go for it.
Jon, you inspire me to see if I can get a friend or co-worker to strap on some hockey helmets and do a little raw work myself. I wonder if any one is actually willing? I'll have to ask in a couple days when I work a shift with some of the guys who would be a little more open to it.
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Post by Derzis on Jun 28, 2016 14:40:16 GMT
Cool video! Never underestimate the knife. Not if you have a longsword. Not if you have a handgun. Not if you have a howitzer. In real life the knife guy can just stab the other fellow in the back. It's the staged setting that features both parties facing each other at the ready. But even if both are at the ready, it's a mistake to assume the party with a longsword is *going* to win. If he cuts or thrusts at long measure, seeking to use his advantage in reach, the knife armed party can move out of measure or deflect the weak. If the longsword party attacks in closer measure to prevent this, he's exposed to the knife's thrust and the parry of a hand. Remember the man with the knife has a second weapon--his HAND. It can absolutely win a fight if used properly. The cut generally requires you to move closer than the thrust. And the closer you are, the less of an advantage your reach is over a dagger-armed opponent. While I haven't fought much with dagger vs. longsword, I've neutralized longswords with a wee tiny buckler many times. There's no reason the knife couldn't do this as well. Though it's a bit tricky, it could work. The smart swordsman would probably just attack the hands. Looks like you didn't read what I was saying above. In real life, IF one of the guys wants to kill, he will kill. He will just wait for it. In a duel I don't assume the sword will win, I assumed that the knife guy can't win unless the opponent has no intention to kill him. How many times you think you will need to get cut to sent you to the ground forgetting to use your knife? Jon's video is great because is showing how important is his training even though he doesn't use formal technics - he goes for the handle to block the cutting edge - but the video lacks the cutting power of that katana. Every cut he receives in the hand while trying to parry against the blade is ending with that hand falling on the ground. Enough to change the 'moment' even for a second - and this is enough for the sword guy to get in the second and usually the final cut. He is successful when he goes for handle before the opponent is in position to cut. Great if you can, is that kind of approach when you can change the odds, but is not a recipe to get out of the fight as a survivor 100% of the time. If the opponent would have had a shinken and was his enemy not his friend, he might be more precautious. But overall is a good vid, that is showing how important is not the tool but the man behind it. In theory all is good regarding the difference between stabbing and cutting, the problem comes in real life. Keep the sword moving and the guy will not get in so easy. And nobody said you have to cut the guys head from the beginning, whatever is closer to you should be the sword's target.
PS I've just seen your remark with: "remember, the guy with a knife has a second weapon ... his hand". I have no idea what you are thinking, but both guys have 2 hands and 2 legs. If you don't use them when your life is at stake because you were taught in a specific way, I have no idea why you got yourself in that situation in first place!
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 28, 2016 17:12:04 GMT
The hand is also a weapon. It can be used to control the center or to attack the opponent. You can see this in many sword arts from Chinese to early modern European. Sword grabs, sword deflections, arm grabs, wrestling moves and even punches. So if the longsword can be countered with the dagger, the hand can attack. The man with the longsword has both of his on his handle.
Of course the knife guy can win. He probably won't, but he *can*. No weapon is all powerful. No attack is perfect. Each choice gives rise to counters. Each strength to weaknesses. A powerful oberhau can be more easily voided than a light one. So if you try to blast through a raised dagger, your blade can more easily be deflected because you have put too much power behind the cut and cannot change your line of attack quickly enough. You cut down into air as he moves forward. There's no perfect weapon, and no absolute guarantee of victory in a duel. A man with a dagger in close measure actually has a better position than the longsword-armed foe. So really it's just a matter of getting to close measure.
Are you thinking sword grabs are impossible? Obviously you don't throw your bare hand in the path of the blade, but you can certainly use it to deflect the path or grab a stationary blade. For example if my dagger can block a cut even for a moment, the blade is stationary and my left hand can snatch it. One method is to raise the left hand inverted, grab the blade and then twist and pull back. Or even more typical, if the longsword fellow tries to thrust at me, his blade is vulnerable to a grab on the weak at full extension. That move shows up all over the place.
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Post by Derzis on Jun 28, 2016 17:19:17 GMT
Man, you are assuming: - that the sword guy is using the sword two hands. - Wrong. - that sword guy has no empty-hands basics or he is not using them when with a sword in his hand - Wrong. Both assumptions will bring you closer to the god if you where in a fight for your life against a guy who wants to kill you.
Based on above, your "of course ..." is pointless. When you say "he probably won't but he can*" you should do what the old guys knew long time ago: "Don't engage in a fight if your chances to get alive are reduced". For real, when the guys used their swords? On the battlefield or in duels or attacks against unaware targets. These scenarios are life expectancy related.
1. On battlefield, smack around you - usually against unaware guys engaged with your friends after you got rid of your first enemy. You try to change the odds in your favour by using the number of the available fighting swords on your side as ticket to survival and try to get back home together. 2. In duel - you are confident that the odds are on your side
3. Attacks on unaware target - you know you have good chances to live
Martial weapons training are supposed to teach you when to fight and when to fly. Winning-points training will not teach you that, since your life is never at stake. That's why you can see scenarios "long sword vs sickle" instead "long sword vs 2 sickles".
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 28, 2016 17:47:53 GMT
Well I was talking specifically about longswords. So yeah, he's using both hands. He CAN release but that takes a moment. If we're talking about arming sword vs. dagger things probably get a bit worse for the dagger fellow. If it's sword and buckler things get even worse still. Basically if I'm stuck with a dagger against a sword, I'd prefer it to be a longsword. Mainly because his close measure is largely undefended until he moves to half sword or ringen with the blade. Which takes a moment. I've seen this play out in freeplay and matches. And the dagger becomes even more useful in armored fighting. There's a reason they always wore one.
Yes, but you may not have a choice in the matter. And you may not have the time or opportunity to retreat with safety. If for example you are facing a man with a messer at the market trying to kill you, you may not have anything more than your rondel with you. Or your larger weapon may be back with your horse. These things happen. Just as sometimes swordsmen had to fight against pole arms. It's far from ideal, but it's something to be aware of.
There's no question the swordsman has major advantages over the dagger-armed man. Just as the spearman has major advantages over the swordsman. But it's not *impossible* for the underdog to win.
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Post by Derzis on Jun 28, 2016 18:00:05 GMT
1. The topic is about knife vs sword. Any kind of sword. 2. IF hypothetically you have no choice in the matter and you are the guy with the knife, you can't rely on the tool but on your capacity to improvise - assuming you have the background for this. There are no bulletproof recipes. Even a bull can kill a matador sometimes, but is not the rule, is more like the exception.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 28, 2016 18:02:54 GMT
Are you thinking sword grabs are impossible? Obviously you don't throw your bare hand in the path of the blade, but you can certainly use it to deflect the path or grab a stationary blade. For example if my dagger can block a cut even for a moment, the blade is stationary and my left hand can snatch it. One method is to raise the left hand inverted, grab the blade and then twist and pull back. Or even more typical, if the longsword fellow tries to thrust at me, his blade is vulnerable to a grab on the weak at full extension. That move shows up all over the place. In my video “Poignard vs Sword”, on page 1, I grab the sword twice starting at 1:40. However if I followed through with the take-away in the first two demos he would have no sword to grab. Hehe.
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Post by Derzis on Jun 28, 2016 18:15:50 GMT
Are you thinking sword grabs are impossible? Obviously you don't throw your bare hand in the path of the blade, but you can certainly use it to deflect the path or grab a stationary blade. For example if my dagger can block a cut even for a moment, the blade is stationary and my left hand can snatch it. One method is to raise the left hand inverted, grab the blade and then twist and pull back. Or even more typical, if the longsword fellow tries to thrust at me, his blade is vulnerable to a grab on the weak at full extension. That move shows up all over the place. Grabbing a sword is possible, parrying forearm vs katana is No-No. You checked the video or you are just writing what you want to write?
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 28, 2016 18:19:04 GMT
I wasn't talking about the video there so I think we were talking about two different things. Which frame are you looking at?
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Post by Derzis on Jun 28, 2016 18:48:07 GMT
My mistake, I was on cell when I've seen it. Reviewing it, were 2 blocks/parries with arm and 1 with forearm - actually attacks of the sword guy reaching the target transformed in blocks, giving advantage to the knife guy. 10:17 / 11:33 / 13:33
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 28, 2016 19:01:40 GMT
Jon I just saw your video. I saw Kiyoshi’s post but not yours. Must have been still a sleep and rushing through to get at the morning chores and now feel a little foolish. Thanks for sharing. I need to study it more.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 29, 2016 1:51:14 GMT
Well I was talking specifically about longswords. So yeah, he's using both hands. He CAN release but that takes a moment. If we're talking about arming sword vs. dagger things probably get a bit worse for the dagger fellow. I find that I can do a take-away much easier when the opponent is using a arming (on hand) sword. This is because an arming sword with one hand has one pivot point that I work to my advantage.
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Post by jammer on Jun 29, 2016 14:18:55 GMT
OK! It’s finally up. That took Forever. First things first: THIS IS NOT A DEMONSTRATION OF ANY RYU. ANY RESEMBLANCE TO WAZA OR PROPRIETARY TECHNIQUE IS COINCIDENTAL AND NOT A CONSCIOUS DECISION. We did our best to make sure we weren’t representing anything other than ourselves having a little fun. There are some things to talk about for sure. I’ll keep a watch but try not to respond for a couple of days to give people a chance after all of the hoopla. I should put a disclaimer that I’m dropping a bit of casual profanity here and there, happens when I get excited. I did my best to beep it out with a dumb censored MP3, balancing volume and all that. Sound is not necessary. I’m not sure how well the audio even works unless you’re using headphones (my macbook’s audio is wildly inconsistent so I just let it do it’s own thing). I don’t think we really say anything that isn’t obvious, maybe a couple of semi-humorous things if you share our goofy sense of humor, but if it might offend you then you won’t really miss anything by muting it. I cut most of the chatter except some stuff that I thought was dumb/funny enough to keep, and tend to “speak with my hands” anyway so you should be able to follow the thought process. So here it is in all it’s ugly unpolished splendor. Thanks to those of you who watch it, and whether you like it or hate it there’s nothing personal. This isn’t ryu stuff, this is just fun at the park and working through a thought exercise. Jon, thanks for posting the video. Why are you standing so close together? The sword has already given up the advantage at your starting point. To learn range, if you need to, you will need two bokuto. Both adopt chudan and close together until the kissaki cross. This is "one step to strike" (OSTS) distance for a sword, most kenjutsuka have this distance burned into their brain. Then each retreat a few steps before practising the attack. The next time you meet at this distance when you practice the move you should be in an attacking kamae (not chudan) ready to strike. Strike and step in simultaneously. If the opponent has a knife the distance for the sword remains the same, it is only shortened for the knife. The knife has more like two-steps-to-strike. IMO, in the video, you are working at the knife's OSTS range, not the sword's. And you are not in the attacking kamae even at this close range. If the sword attacks at her OSTS and is ready to take a step back and cut again, the knife will always be at two STS minimum. The sword cannot lose very easily at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 14:47:22 GMT
I don't understand what you mean. The swordsman is not taking a step because it looks cool he needs to move closer so he can hit. If knife stood in place he would be struck and out of range to counter attack. Being further away would add nothing except waiting a bit longer for the swordsman to close. He could start an entire football field away, there's no need to respond until he is able to close and do something.
If he swings out of measure and retreats then he is making threatening gestures and not attacking. He can dance all he wants we only care about attacks.
I'd have to watch again but I'd swear sword establishes kamae before delivering attack, that is where the strike is chambered, although I deliberately telegraphed my attacks for my training partner because he isn't there yet and I'm not going to hurt or humiliate someone helping me make a video for the Internet.
*phoneposting
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Post by jammer on Jun 29, 2016 15:39:36 GMT
If you look at 3.51, pause it on that second, your distancing is there, you are in mutual chudan with kissaki touching.
This spacing is too close for the sword, if the sword was to be striking down properly at this range it would have your hand off, ie this is, or is very close to, the distance where the sword would have delivered the strike already.
If you both had a sword in chudan with kissaki touching you would both be one step from delivering your strike (OSTS). Therefore the sword must be too close if it is in ranging chudan with a knife kissaki touching.
You are at this distance for most of the clashes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 16:49:21 GMT
Yes we are standing so neither can cut or stab the other without moving closer. The swordsman has less distance to bridge than the knife.
when the blades are in contact you feel movement and respond, this is basic fencing. Pris de fer I think? I don't recall the term. Push laterally to move him offline. Not difficult at all. If he fights disengaging is a lot easier with 4 inch than maneuvering 30 around a point
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 17:24:11 GMT
In any event thank you for watching and sharing thoughts. I'm trying to sort out how to upload an image from my phone to answer concerns about losing the hand. Real katana have tsuba and Habaki which are not sharp. Once grasped it is impossible for the sword to cut the hand or slice the fingers. Attempt: m.imgur.com/a/gGsQf
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Post by jammer on Jun 29, 2016 18:14:23 GMT
Yes we are standing so neither can cut or stab the other without moving closer. The swordsman has less distance to bridge than the knife. when the blades are in contact you feel movement and respond, this is basic fencing. Pris de fer I think? I don't recall the term. Push laterally to move him offline. Not difficult at all. If he fights disengaging is a lot easier with 4 inch than maneuvering 30 around a point IMO that's too close to allow a knife.
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