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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jul 23, 2015 12:20:29 GMT
To make a laminated blade worthy of the effort and to get a truly superior blade you would need to use an M-2 high speed steel core (6 to 7% tungsten) with a spring steel outer like 9255/60 or even 6150 spring steel, the cost of producing this would be very high, however you would only need a fairly thin section of M-2  |
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jul 23, 2015 12:40:22 GMT
To make a laminated blade worthy of the effort and to get a truly superior blade you would need to use an M-2 high speed steel core (6 to 7% tungsten) with a spring steel outer like 9255/60 or even 6150 spring steel, the cost of producing this would be very high, however you would only need a fairly thin section of M-2 :) Agreed, the best "spring steel" for the jacket and best edge holding steel for the edge would produce the best blade possible, surpassing that of the best L6 bainite, tamahagane, 3V, S7, etc. But the cost would not justify the performance advantage. And to those that think the lamination might come apart I say no one is concerned about this when they buy a folded steel or Damascus blade. And the Japanese and other cultures have been folding steel and laminating steel for centuries and it was not a big concern to them. |
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jul 23, 2015 16:30:40 GMT
To make a laminated blade worthy of the effort and to get a truly superior blade you would need to use an M-2 high speed steel core (6 to 7% tungsten) with a spring steel outer like 9255/60 or even 6150 spring steel, the cost of producing this would be very high, however you would only need a fairly thin section of M-2 Agreed, the best "spring steel" for the jacket and best edge holding steel for the edge would produce the best blade possible, surpassing that of the best L6 bainite, tamahagane, 3V, S7, etc. But the cost would not justify the performance advantage. And to those that think the lamination might come apart I say no one is concerned about this when they buy a folded steel or Damascus blade. And the Japanese and other cultures have been folding steel and laminating steel for centuries and it was not a big concern to them. quote - M2 is molybdenum based high-speed steel in tungsten–molybdenum series. The carbides in it are small and evenly distributed. It has high wear resistance. After heat treatment, its hardness is the same as T1, but its bending strength can reach 4700 MPa, and its toughness and thermo-plasticity are higher than T1 by 50%. end quote Since there is only a need for a thin core (perhaps 1/8th inch) the net cost would not be too high, because of it's high carbon content forge welding should not pose a problem. |
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jul 23, 2015 16:32:37 GMT
Ps. if someone goes ahead with this remember to give me credit (and maybe a tanto)  Going to put this in manufacturing thread |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 16:38:45 GMT
You can get tungsten carbide tipped chainsaw blades, ends of the teeth are welded on and that takes a lot of stress where the steels meet during a cut. Could not such a thing be done with a sword? like a thin triangle bar of tungsten carbide with the sword basically built around it? edit- come to think of it, isn't a fold basically a weld?
wouldn't be sanmai unless, as stated above, a thin sheet of the stuff rather than a bar, but at that point I'd likely be well satiated nomatter how it was put together:)
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jul 23, 2015 16:46:44 GMT
You can get tungsten carbide tipped chainsaw blades, ends of the teeth are welded on and that takes a lot of stress where the steels meet during a cut. Could not such a thing be done with a sword? like a thin triangle bar of tungsten carbide with the sword basically built around it? edit- come to think of it, isn't a fold basically a weld? wouldn't be sanmai unless, as stated above, a thin sheet of the stuff rather than a bar, but at that point I'd likely be well satiated nomatter how it was put together:)  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 16:52:50 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jul 23, 2015 16:57:50 GMT
You can get tungsten carbide tipped chainsaw blades, ends of the teeth are welded on and that takes a lot of stress where the steels meet during a cut. Could not such a thing be done with a sword? like a thin triangle bar of tungsten carbide with the sword basically built around it? edit- come to think of it, isn't a fold basically a weld? wouldn't be sanmai unless, as stated above, a thin sheet of the stuff rather than a bar, but at that point I'd likely be well satiated nomatter how it was put together:) Yes, but more difficult than a straight lamination |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 2:33:59 GMT
oh yeah, hadn't considered, but makes sense this shape would be hard to work compared to a flat sheet. aha back to sanmai for the next generation of ultra-modern katana *dreams*
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 8:52:19 GMT
To make a laminated blade worthy of the effort and to get a truly superior blade you would need to use an M-2 high speed steel core (6 to 7% tungsten) with a spring steel outer like 9255/60 or even 6150 spring steel, the cost of producing this would be very high, however you would only need a fairly thin section of M-2 :) I'd like to see a blade those specifications of any size! That would seriously be quite impressive :) |
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Jul 26, 2015 13:18:50 GMT
Another approach would be GYAKU-KOBUSE (reverse Kobuse) structure with your preferred steels. It is a bit more commonly available and utilizes the more common forge welding. It is also a bit more economical on the more expensive core steel than San Mai (three flat layers).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 14:15:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 20:46:27 GMT
lol!
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Oct 8, 2015 18:44:40 GMT
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 9, 2015 2:04:47 GMT
That's big news since Donnie's vocal style worked for Ryan and worked to counteract this review. Here lemme post it in quotes:
Now Donnie might be a bit fiery at times, and sometimes a bit aggressive, but I had always felt he was sincere in this Ryanswords gig. Good on him, and good on Digs for doing this for the community way before.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 9, 2015 2:52:36 GMT
That's big news since Donnie's vocal style worked for Ryan and worked to counteract this review. Here lemme post it in quotes: Now Donnie might be a bit fiery at times, and sometimes a bit aggressive, but I had always felt he was sincere in this Ryanswords gig. Good on him, and good on Digs for doing this for the community way before. So... while I sincerely (nice way of saying the absolutely do) believe that other sellers do fake sanmai, the part that bothers me is he says that all of those swords are made by ryan swords. My question becomes this, is he referring to JUST laminated blades or ALL blades? If all, I have a much harder time believing that. Swords are shipped from different locations, many of which are visible on google maps as separate factories. I find it hard to believe that they have several fake factories just to fake making things from different sellers who compete with each other for business and instead all swords are ryan swords swords. Why would there be such a big difference between mount and geometry quality between forges if they were all made by the same group? I can see mounts, ryanswords makes the blade, sends it, but the blades themselves are much different. Let's also not forget that there are video tours of multiple factories available on YouTube. This leads me to believe that either he is referring to all laminated blades only (which I doubt) or all blades, which to me seems stupendously unlikely. One can justify the competition with things like commission. One can justify mount quality with the factory that makes them doesn't mount them. However, I find it hardly likely that sellers would purchase a relatively steady quality of sword (many sellers have poor quality) and not what sells most. Yes, I believe that ryansword and really everyone else sells fake sanmai, but places like huawei, st-nihonto, and even-sword, don't sell blades of the same quality, nor are their production times the same. So unless I see more compelling evidence that they are the same, I will refrain from changing my view that they come from competing forges who all will rip you off if you attempt to buy laminated blades (except for huawei which doesn't offer them). |
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 9, 2015 3:28:42 GMT
What he was saying was that St Nihonto and Swords of Northshire were both Ryan swords. The former surprises me, though of course I'm not too sure if that's accurate. You have genuine laminations. Ronin Katana's elite line. Hanbon's customs. At times, even Huawei has that. And yes, I doubt Ryan has an actual forge, as with many other ebay "forges." Partnered with, perhaps.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 9, 2015 3:55:26 GMT
That's what gets me though. Sheng owns his own forge. It is listed as his business when you look up the address of the package mailed to me. The factory is aptly names Sheng's Sword Factory. It leads me to believe that not all of the information he presented was accurate. If anything, it i likely the other way around since we don't have any evidence pointing to ryansword having a factory of their own. It has long since been speculated that ryansword was a reseller.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 9, 2015 3:56:01 GMT
To the best of my knowledge, most of these eBay forge/vendors are simply vendors that secure products from a forge, thus are not "the forge" themselves, though they may claim or infer otherwise. It is also well known fact that one vendor may operate under several alias', and it can be difficult to distinguish who is who. It stands to reason that Ryansword could source their products from the same forge as other vendors such as st-nihonto. It also stands to reason that the quality of pieces that they get are not on the same level as those payed for and sent to other vendors. That decision is made by the vendor, not the forge. Do they want to spend more on quality and sell for the same price and lose money, or spend less and charge more for the same or lesser quality and make false claims? Remember that all of these vendors are money-making ventures, and often as not profits override loyalty or ethics. That's not a condemnation of eBay vendors, as I am extremely impressed with the quality and artistry put out by some of them and would joyously leap and the chance to own some of their work, but it is a fact of life that spans the entire spectrum of any kind of profit driven business.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 9, 2015 3:58:55 GMT
To the best of my knowledge, most of these eBay forge/vendors are simply vendors that secure products from a forge, thus are not "the forge" themselves, though they may claim or infer otherwise. It is also well known fact that one vendor may operate under several alias', and it can be difficult to distinguish who is who. It stands to reason that Ryansword could source their products from the same forge as other vendors such as st-nihonto. It also stands to reason that the quality of pieces that they get are not on the same level as those payed for and sent to other vendors. That decision is made by the vendor, not the forge. Do they want to spend more on quality and sell for the same price and lose money, or spend less and charge more for the same or lesser quality and make false claims? Remember that all of these vendors are money-making ventures, and often as not profits override loyalty or ethics. That's not a condemnation of eBay vendors, as I am extremely impressed with the quality and artistry put out by some of them and would joyously leap and the chance to own some of their work, but it is a fact of life that spans the entire spectrum of any kind of profit driven business. This makes sense to an extent, but seeing as how the factories have been found (see Jussi's thread) which are in different locations throughout longquan, it seems to me to be more likely that they are not the same "forge." I don't see people making entire buildings just to fake things coming from different places. Edit: I would like to add that there is a museum that contains work from the various smiths in longquan. I feel this also adds to the likelyhood that at the very least, there are multiple "master smiths" of which we get our swords from. |
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