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Post by jrock on Jul 18, 2015 22:48:18 GMT
Point taken sir...
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Post by nddave on Jul 19, 2015 14:37:19 GMT
If you cant trust the vendor you cant trust the product. End of story. I don't agree with this altogether. When buying from a seller such as Kult of Athena, I completely trust the vendor even if I might not totally trust the product. When purchasing from an ebay seller, the same applies if I've had good cs and trust the seller will take care of any issues, but the products can still be somewhat of a crap shoot. I've purchased from Huawei many times and have been very happy so far but I won't go so far as to say all their products will be great all of the time. I think this should apply all across the board when buying production swords and wouldn't trust a seller saying anything different or making guarantees other than for returns and cs. -Josh I also think it matters if the vendor is either a first or third party vendor in regards to liability. A lot of these Ebay vendors allude to the fact that they are partnered or working for the forges. I don't know if this is a pitch to garner trust from buyers or if it's true but in a way even if it's not it holds the vendor liable when say a buyer ask for pics. If they treat the pics like they went down to the forge and shot them themselves (even if they did or not) this would make the vendor liable. If the vendor simply stated something like, yea I'll ask for pics and send them to you. Or hey I'm just a vendor, the forge is in China. Then I'd hold them less liable for bad swords. Then again if the vendor does want full faith in their customer base they should make it a responsibility to make sure they're educated on what they're selling as well on what the abilities of the forge and what they can consistently produce. If 5 out of 10 swords are lemons it might be time to find a new forge. A lot of this could be remedied by the vendors having sound product knowledge and having hands on inspections before shipments or at least before customer shipment if third party. If the vendor guarantees an inspection of faults before shipment and you get a lemon then it is the vendor who is liable even if the forge made the faulty sword. I think that's why with KoA they're the top third party sword vendor on the market today. Not because they're cheaper but because they have sound product knowledge, give out sound description of their products and have a few buyer guarantees that help make sure their customers get what they want and are covered in case it's not. It'd be nice if more vendors in the industry kept up with KoA or at least were regulated by law to do so. But with the majority of vendors and forges being Chinese in origin on Ebay I don't think there's much that can be done. |
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Post by jrock on Jul 19, 2015 15:43:30 GMT
Agreed. Which is why i wont do business with those ebay vendors
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jul 19, 2015 17:16:38 GMT
I prefer to buy with full trust in both the vendor and the product but sometimes I just take a chance. If I didn't, I'd not have had about 6 really incredible and beautiful blades/swords that I thought either met or exceeded my expectations. I weigh the options and risks and take a shot but I do this with sellers that I feel are substantially less of a risk. I won't personally buy anything from ryansowrd or a dozen other ebay sellers because I've just seen too many things I feel I wouldn't be happy or satisfied with, regardless of their cs, nothing that appeals to me.
-Josh
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 19, 2015 17:22:57 GMT
I'm with Cottontail. I've taken a few risks on items from 3rd party vendors I trust but I wasn't sure of the item.
If I hadn't taken a chance, I would not have a great willow leaf dao that I bought from Sword n Armory nor my Cold Moon jian I bought from WLE, which has just a stellar blade and tang.
For me, I am much more willing to take a chance on a sub $150 sword.
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Post by jrock on Jul 19, 2015 22:48:03 GMT
When i search for a new katana if the description says something like "san mai blade with a truly remarkable hamon" and i see pics that are really contrary to that and the hamon falls off the edge the entire length i just laugh. If vendors want ppl to buy their product dont syke up the product with a false description. Out of most of the ebay vendors this is almost the case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 20:33:32 GMT
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Jul 22, 2015 0:54:39 GMT
If it is really Soshu Kitae lamination, it may be a steal. The rest of it looks put together well.
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Jul 22, 2015 3:33:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 4:04:23 GMT
That's a pretty complex lamination, and all brass fittings, if that's legitimate it sounds like good value! |
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jul 22, 2015 6:38:44 GMT
If it is really Soshu Kitae lamination, it may be a steal. The rest of it looks put together well. Depends on what constitutes each lamination, in the end the heat treating is vital, still looks more legit  |
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 22, 2015 8:28:47 GMT
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 22, 2015 8:48:18 GMT
I've been trying to say this for a long time but I think the lamination hype is getting out of hand. Buy a good sword, not a fancy crappy one. Schwert Shop gets their laminated line from the same place where Ronin does. Zhejiang Zhengs makes them for both of them. Ronin sells them as Roninkatana as they are commisioned by them. Schwert Shop just sells the Kawashima line which is the housebrand of Zhengs. I know few other places in Europe that get laminated blades from Zhengs too. My advice is save your money and just buy a regular sword. Personally I see most of the "fancy stuff" from the Chinese forges as a waste of money. You won't be getting a superior performance from cheap laminated blades, nor should you. I think people are way too obsessed with performance these days. Invest in good basic sword as it's better when sword has basics done correctly than the sword has advertised all kinds of fancy stuff but is total crap. |
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 22, 2015 9:32:02 GMT
I've been trying to say this for a long time but I think the lamination hype is getting out of hand. Buy a good sword, not a fancy crappy one. Schwert Shop gets their laminated line from the same place where Ronin does. Zhejiang Zhengs makes them for both of them. Ronin sells them as Roninkatana as they are commisioned by them. Schwert Shop just sells the Kawashima line which is the housebrand of Zhengs. I know few other places in Europe that get laminated blades from Zhengs too. My advice is save your money and just buy a regular sword. Personally I see most of the "fancy stuff" from the Chinese forges as a waste of money. You won't be getting a superior performance from cheap laminated blades, nor should you. I think people are way too obsessed with performance these days. Invest in good basic sword as it's better when sword has basics done correctly than the sword has advertised all kinds of fancy stuff but is total crap. 200% this. I'm so tired of sanmai this and soshu that, just buy a friggin' sword. "Maru" is fine, really. Sword buyers have gotten way too obsessed with "lamination" and that's exactly why most "laminated" blades aren't. Why should they be, when you can just tell someone they are and 98% or more won't know how to tell the difference? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 10:24:29 GMT
I'd take a high carbon DH monosteel or a TH 9260 monosteel over laminated steel (or forge folded steel for that matter) in a cheaper katana, on a budget they're more likely to mess it up. In the mid-ranged stuff, then laminations are likely to be done well, if you want a laminated blade. If you want a superior blade, modern fancy steels trump older style laminated blades, go Swedish powder steel, L6 or something like that. As usual, it really depends on what you're after... |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 22, 2015 11:57:05 GMT
Lamination is a way of doing adequate differential hardening without knowing exactly what your alloys are, and without thermometers etc.
It's still cost effective if you want an extreme heat treatment - a really hard edge. Which isn't necessary on swords, but can be very nice on kitchen knives. The sanmai knives can be cheaper than monosteel, because the heat treatment is so much easier to get right.
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Post by jam on Jul 22, 2015 12:07:41 GMT
The list of points in order of importance for me would be something like this:-
1. Steel type and temper appropriate and safe for intended use
2. Length of blade, balance of sword and kisaki type
3. Shape, feel and quality of tsuka
4. Tachikaze
5. Saya fit, koiguchi and kurigata placement
6. Quality and appearance of fittings.
6. Hamon style/appearance
7. Blade construction method
Sometimes we see the order of importance, for some folks, seeming to be the exact opposite. I'm always shocked when I see someone asking for recommendations for a sword for Iai and they don't seem to be in the least bit bothered that the sword is not the appropriate length, has nohi, a hammer-handle, synthetic ito and a rubbish saya. I can see why a massive choji hamon and laminated construction is important for bragging rights among collectors, but laminated products can delaminate and I would not buy a cheap blade to an expensive spec. It is much more likely to be contain poor quality workmanship IMO.
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Post by Croccifixio on Jul 22, 2015 13:38:22 GMT
I've been trying to say this for a long time but I think the lamination hype is getting out of hand. Buy a good sword, not a fancy crappy one. :) Schwert Shop gets their laminated line from the same place where Ronin does. Zhejiang Zhengs makes them for both of them. Ronin sells them as Roninkatana as they are commisioned by them. Schwert Shop just sells the Kawashima line which is the housebrand of Zhengs. I know few other places in Europe that get laminated blades from Zhengs too. My advice is save your money and just buy a regular sword. Personally I see most of the "fancy stuff" from the Chinese forges as a waste of money. You won't be getting a superior performance from cheap laminated blades, nor should you. I think people are way too obsessed with performance these days. Invest in good basic sword as it's better when sword has basics done correctly than the sword has advertised all kinds of fancy stuff but is total crap. It depends what you want it for though. Sometimes, it's not so much the pure performance but also the aesthetics, or perhaps the simple knowledge that there was an attempt at historicity, that can put a premium to these things. For example, if I was doing purely backyard cutting, I would really want a TH springsteel for the durability. And I wouldn't mind all that much if the rayskin was fake. Or if the tsuba was zinc alloy or some other low quality metal. But that would be utterly ugly for display and appreciating the aesthetic quality of the steel. Not to mention, it really wouldn't be a katana-like sword but more of just a katana-looking sword, making no attempt to preserve the unique features of the japanese sword. |
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Jul 22, 2015 14:41:35 GMT
I have my mono-steel Hanwei Raptor for backyard cutting. With it's factory satin finish, scuffs on the surface are not an issue. A few minutes of work with 600 grit backed paper and it is back to looking like it arrived. It has a pretty significant Niku, which makes it pretty forgiving.
As for the laminated blades, for me it is the historical romance, often they have a very small niku, which relegates them to light cutting only. Restoring their finish is a much tougher proposition. But, there is no question they have a striking visual appeal, which the Raptor will never achieve.
I do not suffer from the illusion the fancy laminated blades are stronger, I actually believe they are a bit weaker and less forgiving of a bad-strike than a through-hardened mono-steel with a larger niku. But then, how many bland looking mono-steel blades does a guy really need for backyard cutting. You can put a pretty handle on a mono-steel blade, but it will never the total appeal of a laminated, folded, abrasive polished blade with a nice hamon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 0:09:25 GMT
Makes sense, regardless of whether we're collectors, backyard cutters or martial artists, we all can appreciate each others preferences.
We all like out super-durable, utilitarian, purely functional cutting tools that may not be the prettiest, but truth be told would outperform traditional weapons and would make superior battlefield weapons by a long margin (yes, maybe it's better that a sword bends than breaks, but it's even better if it doesn't bend at all - it's the 21st century, we've overcome the limitations of ancient metallurgy with modern steels!!!)
Similarly, we all like something that looks nice, sometimes perhaps so nice that we don't want to scratch it up and wear it out by using it, it's about appreciating fine workmanship and having an example of the wonders of what skilled craftsmen can produce.
Typically the first category can be had quite cheaply thanks to modern mass production methods, but the second category is more often the realm of mid to high priced and custom blades, and it's easy to get amazing workmanship in these price brackets, but as this thread shows, getting this second category at budget prices is a bit of a hit and miss affair, a real gamble - either because the products aren't what they're advertised to be for whatever reason, or because the fancier metallurgy done down to a price can be done badly.
It's really a case of caveat emptor, let the buyer beware!
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Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
