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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 20:35:01 GMT
I too think a zwerheu could be put through a mat but it requires a lot more speed. Consider that a .22 cal has a round blunted surface, but at 1,100 fps will easily go through a mat. I managed to get more then half way through the mat in horizontal cuts with a hand and half sword (not in vid). I think if I keep at it I will eventually get my speed up enough to get through in one cut. However, this is not in any good form. This is full commitment to the cut. I don't think too many people will be able to make successful horizontal cuts in good from. Archers used whatever weapons they wanted. And a VAST porportion chose a double edged arming sword. I think it's an absurd conclusion to draw that people used single edged swords because double edged swords took so much more skill to use. ANY weapon only reaches it's true potential when used by a master, that applies to single edged swords as well. If your not going to use both edges of a sword there is no point in having two edges. A single edged sword is stronger then a double edged sword. It takes more effort to make a strong double edged sword. If wraps are out, then I would prefer a single edged blade. Since I am capable of making strong strikes with wraps, I want two edges on my sword. My opponents don't have to like it, but they have to deal with it. In real life you can choose how you will make your own attack. You don't get to decide how you will be attacked.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 21:05:42 GMT
Unfortunately, there is more than one way to use the false edge. Wraps are just one way out of MANY. Zwerchau and shietelhau (sp? Squinting strike) are just a few. One of the the most useful attacks with a shield is a diagonal attack with the false edge leading, your opponent catches it on their shield, but then you twist your wrist a bit more and continue the point into their head and chest. That is an incredibly useful attack that requires a false edge and is not a wrap.
Proper cutting technique will get you farther than all of the strength in the world. Good technique and good edge alignment will probably be the most benificial in getting a zwerchau to get through a mat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 21:09:57 GMT
Your mixing two-handed sword use with single-handed sword use. No one wraps with a two-handed sword in the SCA or anywhere (unless they one hand it).
Wrap shots are specific to single-hand swords. There is no other use for the false edge except for wraps and half-wraps.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 21:13:07 GMT
COMPLETELY untrue.
Please read my whole post. I referenced a very important attack that IS referenced with a single handed sword. I believe there is a picture in Tallhoffer's manuscript.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 21:28:48 GMT
I think you are describing a half-wrap which is a wrap made at a longer range. It is also known as a thumb-leader and a J-hook. Same shot, with the different positioning or the fighters. In fact every shot is either starts or as an on-side, off-shot shot or a thrust. Both the half-wrap, you describe, and a full wrap start as on-side shots. Both shots uses centrifugal force to turn the sword and strike with the back edge. In one case you close up, in the other you are further away from the target.
Wraps are mentioned in "Lecküchner's Messerfechten". They are referred to as the "Sturzhau" and "Winckerhau".
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Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 21:34:25 GMT
page 251 on my tallhoffer file shows this attack
(It says in the upper left coner 117, so I believe it's plate 117)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 21:36:11 GMT
Do you have an ARMA link?
The problem with Talhoffer is that he has pictures but not descriptions. It is up to us to guess how he arrives at the positions he shows. For longsword that is not a problem because we can cross-reference with Ringeck, but for sword and shield there is no cross-referencing.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 21:38:28 GMT
I'll look. Worst case scenario I could email you the file.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 21:40:45 GMT
Have you come across Lecküchner's Messerfechten and references to "Sturzhau" and "Winckerhau". Christian Tober thinks they are half-wraps.
Going to rapier practice. We'll pick this up tomorrow.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 21:41:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 21:48:50 GMT
I just saw it. It looks more like a thrust on page 251 because the point is going into his chest and there is blood coming out where the point meets the chest.
A wrap over the top would have landed on his head or top of shoulder as a cut. It is possible that he got into that position with an unsuccessful wrap over the top that was stopped by the shield edge, pulled back and then thrust.
If it was a wrap that went over the top like that, it is commonly known as a "scorpion wrap". Down low it is a "grass cutter" or "J-hook".
Got to go.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 23:16:51 GMT
Fiore describes strikes with the false edge with a longsword. A good example is a strike upwards at the hands from the posta Boar's Tooth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 0:07:00 GMT
Because the SCA limits attacks from landing in the hand or lower leg, a lot of the shot that would use the other side of the sword while NOT being a wrap just isn't used as that's what most of those shot target actually.
Even in your video, you can see that the wraps are coming out slower and weaker then with your rattan sword. Not only that, but your giving a much bigger tell as you push your arm so much to get even a faction of the force with the rattan. AND your recovery is also slower. In a real swordfight, I block that, and your dead. I have a padded helmet, and your dead. Hell since your arm is so far out for so long, I can just chop THAT off and since you have no weapon...your once again dead. It's just a BAD shot in general. Is there a situation where it's a good idea? Well I'm sure there is. But the truth is, the reason it's used in SCA combat so much is because our rattan swords let us...plain and simple.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 4:10:26 GMT
All of the mastercuts in the german tradition can be done with single hand swords as well as longswords. Many use the short edge.
Capo Ferro teaches the use of the short edge, as does Meyer. I haven't really gotten into to much Agrippa or Marrozzo, but I'm sure they're in there. Using that false edge is intuitive if you have good grounding in basic posture and attack.
I think wraps are silly. Probably okay in formation, but not that amazing and there are better things you could be doing with your sword. I believe there is far too much recovery time necessary after wrapping to make is plausible. I'm sure someone in some historical battlefield has used a wrap successfully the same way that someone on some historical battlefield probably got lucky and managed to hit someone with the flat of his sword at such an angle with enough situational things going for him that it allowed him to win the fight. That doesn't mean that we should all be training to hit people with the flat though.
(emphasis added)
The only reason you can't do a horizontal cut is because you can't to a good diagonal cut and while a diagonal cut indeed gets some of the force absorbed into the ground through the stand, a horizontal cut does not have that advantage, and will send the mat flying, as you very well know. Horizontal cuts are just harder to do properly, which is why tatami 'likes' diagonal ones better - diagonal cuts are easier.
Speed is one way to cut, yes. Form is another. I'd take form over speed any day. When I get a good longsword cutter(all i have are blunts - yay Albion Maestro line! and wasters...) I'll show you a good zwerchau cut. No reason they can't cut mats all the way at the same speed any other cut works.
Are you serious that you think not many people can make good horizontal cuts in good form? That's the ONLY way to make a good cut - PERIOD. Full commitment to the attack vs. good form? Since when is there a mutual exclusivity between good form and good commitment? I'm sorry Tsafa, but that line right there completely invalidated everything you've said.
Ram: squinter or 'glancer' is 'shielhau'. Sheitelhau is something different(scalp strike).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 15:39:07 GMT
Are you serious that you think not many people can make good horizontal cuts in good form? That's the ONLY way to make a good cut - PERIOD. Full commitment to the attack vs. good form? Since when is there a mutual exclusivity between good form and good commitment? I'm sorry Tsafa, but that line right there completely invalidated everything you've said. Adam, I was being specific to cutting tatmi mats. When you get a sharp blade you can try it and post a video for us. Until then, I don't know why people are so quick to doubt actual experience. If you come across any videos of people cutting mats horizontally please post them. Coldnapalm, I disagree with your assessment. The rattan and steel are hitting with the same power. The difference is that the steel has more of an edge so it bites into the tire, hence moving it less. The rattan has a wider striking surface so it moves the tire rather then bite into it. The wrap does require a bit more force because it does it does hit at a later point in the arch of a strike, so it needs more fuel to get there. For this same reason it does appear a little slower since it is traveling a greater distance to the target. It is also true that generally you will not follow a wrap up with another shot. You will reset yourself into a defensive position and start from there. It is possible to follow it up with an off-side if your are positioned well. One does not base their whole strategy on just wraps any more then they would on just thrusts. I will typically through an off-side shot first in order to get the person to move their shield left and blind themselves, then the wrap comes. It may land or it may not, but now my opponent has one more thing to worry about. Kortoso, I was being specific to single handed swords. Fiore is working with a hand and half. Most people don't have enough strength to just cut up and make a good blow with the false edge of a single handed sword. For those that do have the strength, it can be a very effectively surprising attack, because the other person does not think you are in a position to do anything. That shot is all arm strength.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 16:03:02 GMT
Because it's obvious you DON'T have much experience cutting at all, whereas I HAVE made nice clean horizontal cuts. You've cut ONCE in your life and had what, six mats? at 3 cuts a piece? How many actually made it through the mat? How many did you make where you were still in a state of balance after the cut? Are you cutting the same way you would attack someone if you were fighting them? If not...
If you're knocking over the stand or tee-balling the mat as often as actually cutting it, then you don't have any right to talk about what is or isn't feasible within a cutting context.
While I agree that you need to make use of all three possibilities with a sword(cut, thrust, slice), there are many, particularly later period, who only thrust.
A shot that you can't follow up, that you most likely have to reposition yourself after is not a good shot. In SCA it may be okay given the plate armor you wear and the banning of grappling which allows you guys to be so close to each other without fear of reprisal. But in a real exchange of martial movements, giving and receiving - you should never do something that will put you off balance at all unless you have no other choice and are sure it will incapacitate your opponent(something you can never really be sure of anyway). It's simply common sense.
If I throw a shot such that I have to reposition myself afterwards and it DOESN'T kill my opponent, then he'll be attacking me while I reposition and try to defend myself from my weak position at the same time. I'm not sure if it's a psychological thing or what that means the SCA has never stumbled onto that, but it's a fairly ubiquitous concept regardless of your martial background.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 16:52:33 GMT
I have cut mats once in my life but I have hundreds of hours of rapier and sword & shield experience. I have also fought outside the SCA. I also have the experience of fighting a lot of different people. This is very different from just practicing within a small group. I know what it takes to fight a man.
I never said I was off balance after throwing a wrap. Just that I often have to reset. For that matter I always reset after a 2, 3 or 4 shot combo.
Quite honestly the idea of beating me with grappling is a joke unless you are are strong as me. The various throws and locks do work. I practice and drill them in my WMA class. I'm not going to sit there and let you put a joint lock on me. I can't muscle out of a lock once I'm in it, but I can prevent almost anyone that practices WMA from getting me into one.
In order to take me down with grappling you really have to have practice wresting as an fighting art in itself. I play around with high school wrestlers in my gym sometimes. They have the skill to bring me down (not the strength to pin me), but the advanced techniques they use are not present in the Fight books. I have not come across anyone who practices western sword arts who also maintains the grappling proficiency of a competitive highschool wrester.
Read my post again. I can see how people will misread it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 16:56:29 GMT
Tsafa.
I challenge you to a duel.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 17:01:29 GMT
You're coming to NY?
I can get access to two of Lance Chans RSW's if you are. It'll be fun. You can stay at my place for a few nights to save on hotel costs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 17:38:38 GMT
Kortoso, I was being specific to single handed swords. Fiore is working with a hand and half. Most people don't have enough strength to just cut up and make a good blow with the false edge of a single handed sword. For those that do have the strength, it can be a very effectively surprising attack, because the other person does not think you are in a position to do anything. That shot is all arm strength. Your words: And you'll find the horizontal shot easier when you start using your arms less and your hips more.
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