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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 15, 2008 9:29:29 GMT
First, kudos to you Bill, for putting your first try on tatami mats on film and sharing. As for tips on this, well how about:
- Next time, suggest a piece of scrap carpet under the cutting stand to keep it from bouncing so badly.
- Use a slightly shorter dowel sticking from the stand. About 6 inches is plenty (no "that's what she said" jokes from the gallery ).
- Approach the mat like it was a "single cut fight", which is to say, concentrate on a single perfect form slice through the target.
- Pick a stopping point for the blade tip that can still threaten the opponent.
- Have patience and be smooth and under control. Kind of just let it flow.
- Setup the camera so that it catches you approaching the mat from an angle. That way the camera can see you and your form, as well as the mat and the cut. When you review the video you can see your technique through all the motions.
I'm not so sure about all this "bending is acceptable" talk. I've cut 35-40 mats. Not really a lot, but some. And I've seen about that many cut by others. I've never seen a sword bend on a mat. They obviously will if really bad technique is involved. Or if way too much power is coupled with pretty severe edge misalignment. But a good sword should take quite a bit of abuse on mats without bending. Then again, I was lucky enough to get some early teaching on cutting mats from Dimytri and Dan at Wild Wolf Forge. Maybe I'm just spoiled? Have a lot of others seen swords bend frequently on tatami mats? And lastly, it's obvious on film how much of a "big gorilla" you are, buddy. Hang in there and good first effort!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 11:52:24 GMT
lol... "big gorilla".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 12:48:05 GMT
Great stuff Tsafa, Try soaking the mats for 24 hrs next time, that might help. When you were cutting I had visions of your opponent flying off his horse
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 12:58:47 GMT
lol. Thanks bobo
It is worth noting that we cut about 40 mats. That is about 3 cuts per mat, so 120 cuts. In only about 6 to 8 cuts did we get a sword bending. Now in the case of mat cutting we are hitting a static target with a clearly known surface. In a real fighting it is much harder to control how your sword will hit. Your opponent may step back, close in, shift left or right. You can not be sure if you will strike flesh, linen, leather or steel. So it is my conclusion after this exercise that you can be fairly sure after a fight you will be straightening out your sword.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 13:44:36 GMT
Bill: Not really sure I agree with that one either, a proper sword fight with real swords would be alot different to what you are used to because both guys are going to be more aware of their mortality and so the fight would progress more slowly but would have elements of rapid strikes but you wouldn't just go all out, you would place your strikes to hit vital areas. I've seen a lot of guys cutting mats and cut a few myself and we never had any bends even on longer broadsword rapiers which you would think would be prone to bending. Hang in there mate it does take a lot of skill to do tameshigiri properly, good on you for having a crack at it though He can't be a gorilla Mike he isn't hairy enough
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 17:11:40 GMT
Tsafa, first of all congratulations.
Second, WAY too much power. Move posta to posta. Trust in the technique. The power is in your hips, not your arms. If you knock over the stand, something is wrong.
It's a very good idea to have an assistant help you with the targets. An idea learned through bloody mistakes.
Anyway, keep on it, there are valuable lessons to be learned in the tatami.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 15, 2008 22:31:45 GMT
...Second, WAY too much power. Move posta to posta. Trust in the technique. The power is in your hips, not your arms. If you knock over the stand, something is wrong... DOH! That's what I was trying to say. Just didn't get it done as eloquently. Sage advise from Kortoso. Try to envision Liechtenauer's Master Strikes. You can comfortably do six of the cuts on tatami mats. Mat cutting is about training and perfecting your technique, not killing water-soaked grass. ;D Kortoso, how often do you get to cut tatami? And what do you consider to be an appropriate number of mats and configurations (single, double, triple mat rolls) for a good practice session with the European longsword?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 23:00:36 GMT
Okay. Here's I go...
Extend your arms more fully. Cuts move *through* the guard langenort. It appears you're just pushing that sword as powerfully as you can downward while your hands stay very close to your body. It's like trying to push a knife through bread - it'll just squash the bread. Add a little slice and all of a sudden you've got a good italian appetizer. By fully extending your arms you facilitate that slicing motion without even having to try(body mechanics in action).
The feeling should be one of the tip of your sword 'scraping' the roof. Obviously ACTUALLY scraping the roof is bad, but it's a good way to envision the extension you should have in your arms.
Also, on some of those cuts(particularly the ones that sent the mat flying or flipped over the stand) it does that because you're 'scooping' the blade, which torques the edge while inside the target, which is why you have swords bending. Sloooooooooooow Dooooowwwwn. It's *just* tatami. That stuff is pretty soft and easier to cut than you may think. Relax. Pretend it's a lone milkjug that's already been scored all the way around with a knife and then perforated.
Taking it slower and aiming your cuts not only makes it more enjoyable(cuts that are effortless are the best) but also makes it more lasting, as you tend to get more cuts off a single mat(4 cuts each is reasonable, 5 or 6 is not uncommon, 7 not unheard of).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 23:01:59 GMT
Oh, and 8 bends out of 120 cuts is still 6.67% failure rate.
That's pretty huge as I've never once had a bend.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2008 17:21:14 GMT
Kortoso, how often do you get to cut tatami? And what do you consider to be an appropriate number of mats and configurations (single, double, triple mat rolls) for a good practice session with the European longsword? I don't cut tatami as often as I'd like, but I have to guard against making it "batting practice", ie, just whacking the target and not considering the tactical situation. Now that I am studying iaido, I limit myself to tameshigiri sessions in the dojo with katana. Sensei doesn't want any of us demonstrating techniques on the internet. A while back I was practicing test-cutting a lot, then did some sparring with a friend. He said that I was really telegraphing a lot. Probably a bad habit I picked up from test-cutting. So I would say, don't worry too much about how many mats in one roll, unless you want to show off. A single mat should be sufficient. Try to stick to proper form with a good sharp sword. A fun drill to try is seeing how slowly you can move and still make an effective cut. It's no accident that tameshigiri is biased towards diagonal cuts. Toyama ryu is biased towards diagonal cuts as well; this is based on battlefield observations. The target area between the shoulder and neck is very vulnerable; in order, you cut trapezius, collar bone, subclavial artery, lung, aorta. The body works efficiently in making that cut: kesa-giri or fendente or whatever.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 17, 2008 3:53:47 GMT
Thanks for that advice. That gives me pause for thought. I began with tatami because I wanted a standard medium for evaluating swords in review. But it has gotten addictive. And I see what you mean about picking up a bad habit of telegraphing. I see it in my videos. I am now trying to consciously eliminate that by striving to start every cut from a dead still position or from a totally flowing movement. But I'm not having the luck I hoped for. Ah... more to work on and think about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 9:30:56 GMT
Just remember to move the sword first and let your body move in a way that facilitates keeping structural alignment.
When you attack there can be nothing else. An attack should be 100%. That doesn't mean going ape-semprini loco on mats or whomever you're fighting either. It means being sincere, honest, and dedicated to what you're doing. If you're held up with how you look or thinking about what you're going to do, or worried about the results of what you're going to do, or anything like that it'll show.
When it shows, a skilled opponent will be aware of that, catch it, and all of a sudden you will be the gazelle and he will be the lion. If there is sincerity to your attack, then YOU are the lion and your opponent will have to deal with that. The key is being aware of HIS intention and dealing with that.
An attack is just an attack. A punch is just a punch. Just fingers rolled into a fist. That's nothing. What's hard is catching the intention of the person behind that fist(or foot, or sword, or whatever) and dealing with that instead of the method they use to carry that intention. When you understand this you'll be able to better understand your own body and how to relate to someone effectively in any context - in this case, a martial one.
Just remember - trying to take the time to shift and settle is fine, but don't do it too much or THAT will be a habit. And then that's just as much of a telegraph as anything else because your opponent will just be able to see your attacks coming just as easily - merely from a different cue(in this case, you setting yourself up to strike from a still position).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 17:09:56 GMT
The feeling should be one of the tip of your sword 'scraping' the roof. Obviously ACTUALLY scraping the roof is bad, but it's a good way to envision the extension you should have in your arms. It also helps you in creating a threat before you create a target.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 17, 2008 22:45:09 GMT
This is GREAT information! And much to contemplate...
I think I need to print this out and reread at the beginning of each training session.
Many thanks.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 18, 2008 1:23:30 GMT
This is starting to turn into a pretty good thread for advice. Keep it coming, guys; goodness knows I could use it just as much as the next guy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 7:53:26 GMT
When cutting tatami or bottles I like to pretend that the bottle or the tatami is the main body of my opponent and I shadow fight with my imaginary opponent before delivering the cut so that I always keep that edge to my cutting. When cutting with chinese broadsword I imagine that I am deflecting a cut from my opponent because with the chinese sabre a block turns into an offensive cut. If you play mind games with yourself and yes imagine that the bottle is someone bent on killing you it allows you to keep focus and not telegraph, I have been killed by many an imaginary water bottle monster by telegraphing, by playing these games I now cut things as if fighting a real opponent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 18:01:18 GMT
Just remember - Test cutting is great fun, and good practice. But it's only *so* much better than a karateka breaking boards. It has something to teach us, and it's a good way to make sure your form is still nice... but cutting tatami(or anything for that matter) is always going to bring out some things in us that we don't like, because Tatami doesn't cut back.
You cannot learn to communicate with an adversary by only test cutting. It is analogous to simply sitting at home and reading all there is to read on swordplay but never picking up the sword. There MUST be some sort of freeplay where you're allowed to hit and be hit in order to learn how to catch someone's intention. No matter how fast your reflexes are or how well you avoid telegraphing, you will ALWAYS get hit if you're simply waiting for the attack to come and trusting your quickness to catch up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2008 14:40:11 GMT
I also thought it might be interesting to point out that there are different types of mats. I am told that "bugei wara" mats look the same but are a lot easier to cut. The mats I was cutting in the vid are genuine "mugen dachi" tatami mats.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2008 17:33:53 GMT
Your basic technique should not change.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2008 2:17:33 GMT
The variance in mat cutting does affect how well a given sword or swordsman will perform. Bugei Wara are not particularly easy from what I've read. Nor are Mugen Dachi particularly difficult.
While there is variance, never is the variance so much that one guy with one sword will be able to easily and flawlessly cut one but flip the stand over with another. It is interesting that you choose to include the adjective 'genuine' in your description of Mugen Dachi. Does this imply that Bugei Wara are not genuine?
work on your technique more - I doubt the differences in cutting mats makes much if any difference to people who've never actually cut before.
Also - Can I see you do a 'wrap' onto tatami? I've always wondered about how well those actually cut.
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