Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2008 3:28:14 GMT
I'm using the words told to me when I asked what is the difference between the two at the time of purchase. I have not tried bugei mats so I can't compare myself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 8:46:52 GMT
I'm using the words told to me when I asked what is the difference between the two at the time of purchase. I have not tried bugei mats so I can't compare myself. Humm why do I get the feeling that your interacting with people who really REALLY don't know what the heck they are doing in this case? I mean the things that you are being told kinda worries me. Adam...about wraps...if your sword has a PoB on the far edge (like 6 inches or so)...or a broad blade, the lateral force prevent the sword from flipping well, which negates a lot of the power of the cut...unfortunately if the blade does move through the wrap well, then it's of a design that lacks cutting power in the first place and any small amount lost makes the cut pretty ineffectual as well. A sword that is perfectly balanced for the cut and thrust (say the type XVI or XVIII in general) can be made to do an effective wrap (enough to cut a half mat). This can even be seen in SCA combat. If you make a sword from 2 inch rattan that you shave down the sides so it's 1 1/4 inch x 2 inches, you will notice a lot of power going away when you throw wraps. Not as much as from a real sword...but still noticable. This is why a lot of us in the west refuse to use wraps anymore as it is something that can't be done very well with most real swords.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 14:43:53 GMT
Tsafa studies with a chapter of the Selohaar Fechtschule, which is Christian Henry Tobler's school. From my limited knowledge of HES and the various groups that study German longsword, I think he is getting very sound instruction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 19:24:47 GMT
Umm I don't mean about WMA aspects...just about cutting mats and what your suppose to do when your cutting mats and what not to do...along with general misinformation about tatami mats in general. Mats are a training tool for improving your technique in a cut. They are expensive and you should be getting your money's worth in learning out of each and every cut. That means if a sword bends, you should be wondering why it did so and try to not do it again the next time. Not go, oh it happens.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 23:54:05 GMT
Sorry Adam, I missed your question about the wrap. I did try it on the tatami. I had the same problem I had with the horizontal cuts. The tatami likes to be cut diagonally. I was not able to make any horizontal cut that went clean through either with true or false edge. It is very hard to get a diagonal angle with a wrap. Since I only had a few mats I did not make too many attempts. However horizontal true edge cuts cuts and wraps were still able to put a mean cut into the mat even though they only went a third of the way through.
I think the explanation for this is that when you come in horizontally on the mat, it moves too much or gets knocked over. When you come in diagonally, you are pushing it into the ground so it stiffens up a bit. Likewise, in a diagonal undercut, the weight of the stand holds it in place so you can pull through (unless the mat separates from the stand).
Jonathan is correct in his statement. While my form may need a lot of work and perhaps I might at times misunderstand or misinterpret my instruction, the instruction I am getting is very good at the source.
Cold Napalm, I have found that a lot of people tend to loss even more power on their off-side shots vs wraps because their is less hip action involved. There are also a lot of other shots that some people have trouble doing like rolling shots, slot shots and moulinets. Not everyone has the same strength, speed, and flexibility.
Out West, you guys tend to fight with smaller shields, so there are more openings. Here in the East we use a lot of heaters and kites so the openings are smaller. Even if a persons wrap or off-side is not that strong, presenting it as a threat can be enough to get the other person to move their shield. If you attempt to wrap me, I can not assume your wrap is weak. I must block it. That may open up something else or move me out of position.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 3:13:35 GMT
See the main thing about off side, rolling shots, slot shot or moulets is that they CAN be done with a REAL sword with enough practice at pretty much full force. The wrap can be done with a VERY specific sword only...and that is with some significant time spent at it. Your general sword that the SCA replicates can not do this shot in real life. This is why it's starting to be forwned upon in the west by many fighters. And yes even in the west, heaters are used for wars for the most part. We like smaller shields for duels, but we do use the larger ones in wars and we know how to deal with em. The off shot for instance is infinately better for moving a shield out of position compared to the wrap (unless your two weapon fighting). You have attacks options ready to go from a blcok off shot...that is not the case with a wrap. Not to mention the block for a wrap is less movement then for an off shot unless you have them legged already. But at that point, the it's more like dropping the sword on their back then a true wrap.
PS you mentioned that easties don't use their hips for off shots...why the hell not?!? I mean honestly, that is like one of the top 10 things we teach new fighters here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 3:58:00 GMT
I was not clear. You can use your hips for an off-side but most people are able to put more hip and upper body into an on-side shot, if they are leading with their shield-leg by pushing off their rear foot as they twist the hip. You don't get the same push on the off-side because you hip and leg is already forward.
You guys out west tend to fight more Bellatrix style with the power originating from the hips. In the East we tend to fight more Fast Eddie style with the power coming from the hand snap and upper body. The people who use this find it has less of a tell. Most people out here really use a hybrid of the two. One example would be to throw two off-sides using the hips (and conserving energy) and then throw the third one with just the arm. It breaks the tempo. However, this is a perfect example of something that not everyone can do because they don't have the strength to just arm that last shot. The East has a very high calibration standard, so no one is going to take any shot unless it hits with authority.
I must disagree with you when you say wraps don't work with most swords. I have a large collection of swords ranging in quality from good to bad... heavy to light... long to short and I can through a good wrap with almost any of them. I really think it is a matter of training and practice. A wrap is a very advanced shot. It took me a long time to learn to use it effectively.
I don't think this is much different then a case of switching from a heater to a smaller shield. I have not trained to fight with a small shield and I doubt that I would just magically do well with it. Just because I can't use it well does not mean it can not be used effectively as you guys out West prove.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Apr 23, 2008 4:27:53 GMT
But can you cut with them....?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 5:47:01 GMT
Well you don't have to full force it like you guys do out east on your on-side attacks you know. I know you guys say our bellitrix style is a tell (and it is to some degree)...but the amount of force you guys use on your on side is a much bigger tell I think. Not only that, but the amount of commitment to the attack leaves you open. Once you get good at using the hips, you can change targeting in mid stride much easiler and fluidly then if you just arm it. Yes sometimes and opening require an all arm attack...but that what most new fighters here do. The moderate ones mix the two (I do this). The best ones use their hips for an off side high that goes into an on side low mid stride that end up hitting on side high in one stroke that makes you wonder if they have warp drives in their elbows. I might be biased since I trained with bellitrix for a while . Oh as for not getting a good off side because of foot placement...I call bunk. You guys are being lazy if you can't switch from normal stance to goofy foot in mid strike. I mean honestly we have the excuse of leaving our leg open, but with a heater, you guys have no excuse for not doing that. When I was using a heater, I always did this. Now that I use a 14 inch round, I don't since I get my leg sniped sometimes. Eventually, my shieldwork will get good enough where I'll start doing it again. As for the wrap...some of us have done some pretty extensive tests. It's just not a very feasable cut. If they had maille, it's stopped. Except with very specific swords, it can't even go half way through a half mat unless your willing to do thing that leaves you just WAY to open. Yeah with the SCA swords, no problem...with real swords...there are issues with the physics that no amount of practice will over come. For SCA combat as a sport, wraps are fine. If you want SCA to be accepted into WMA more readily, you need to give up on this a wrap is feasable. If you can not throw the shot with a sword with enough force to cut maille AND not get skewered in the process AND have a viable recovery and attack afterwards, it's juts not a very viable shot. Getting bigger and faster won't help...it's just a bad shot that developed because our round swords allow it. No really, the wrap is the number 1 reason that other WMA will point to the SCA not using proper sword techniques (no stats...just form talking). This is why the movement to go away from that shot. Yes I am aware that many in the east firmly disagree with just about everything I just wrote .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 22:30:05 GMT
Why do you suppose they had two edges on single handed swords if not for using it? My position (and the position of most) with any shot is that if you don't think it is hitting hard enough... don't take it. Of course that just means most people will happily just hit you harder I personally have been hit so hard on the back of the neck with a wrap that the room went blank for a second. That was over a steel gorget that had padding on the underside. That was early on in my SCA career and I have been a believer ever since. Rammstine, you asked if the cut. Yes very much. I mentioned in my early post that it went a third of the way into the tatami. Against 2x4 wood the edge will penetrate a quarter of an inch into the wood.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Apr 23, 2008 22:36:42 GMT
Ah but I never said they weren't used. Looking at the vast amount of false edge cuts in the manuscripts, I'd be daft to claim that.
What I want to know is about the wrap SPECIFICALLY. Does that cut?
edit to respond to your edit:
That's about enough to several a small appendage or give a nice cut. With a semi padded gembeson and maybe some maille, that cutseems like an invitation for me to gut you ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 22:38:23 GMT
Seems like I was editing while you were typing. I have practice tonight so I have to leave now. Tomorrow I will take some vid and pictures of wraps cutting into wood.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 23:43:49 GMT
Yes but how well does a wrap chip wood if the wood is wearing a 2-inch thick leather gambeson that you've mentioned in past discussions of period gear?
If your goal in wraps is to dent wood, then go ahead. If it's hurting someone, it needs to be able to cut soft material.
1/3 through a mat is devastating if you consider it to be open flesh. If you hit someone in the back of the head though they've got a helmet and padding. Yes that blacked you out for a second - but how common is that? I've seen two SCA guys going at it before just wrapping the hell out of each other for a full 5 minutes until one of them eventually got tired and had to take a breather.
The very reason that we use mats is because they simulate flesh. Wood does not. Putting a bamboo core into a mat simulates bone. Usually, mats are several inches thicker than the average man's arm, so I figure that takes into account cloth(linen or whatever) that may be worn.
Wood is just wood. It suffers the same as a sword edge that's too hard - it just cracks or chips. It is not a good substitute for a squishy human body.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 3:16:35 GMT
Tsafa, I'm not saying that wraps aren't an effective shot with rattan swords (they are). The problem is they are ONLY effective with rattan swords (and some very specific cut and thrust swords).
As for using both edges...there are a lot of ways to do that without using wraps.
And then look at your wrap cutting the mat. At the end of that cut, were you in a good position? Could you defend yourself? Attack imediately? Recover to a position where you could do both of those in a split second? If not, then your dead (and it's a bad shot). The amount of force and commitment you have to make a wrap worthwhile with a real sword gets in you a position to die (if it can be done at all since some broad lenticular blades just won't flip over for a wrap at all without it pulling your wrist and elbows out of place). In SCA combat, it works (NOBODY is doubting that...at least I'm hoping not). However, if you want the SCA to be recognized as a WMA, you can't use things that work with rattan swords but not with real swords. The wrap really is one of these. I don't expect you to believe me because I said so, but get a half mat, cover it in riveted chain and see how well you can make wraps work against the mat. Or just try to against a half mat. At the end of the cut, stop and think of the position your in to make that cut. REALLY study this stroke and I think you'll see that it's something for SCA as a sport...not SCA as WMA.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 5:01:52 GMT
I kindof was hoping a wrap could cut just as well as any other cut, so that it would cleave the tatami like nothing then continue on to hit the wrap-er in the face.
Like what I imagine would happen if someone ducked a wrap with good timing...
*imagines it*
It's quite funny you see...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 6:19:25 GMT
Bad Adam...no cookie . Although I do agree it is hilarious when it does happen.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 17:01:34 GMT
By the same token, a zwerch or another one of those "twitchy" German longsword cuts wouldn't cut through a mat. But then, if it's aimed for the opponent's throat (assuming Blossfechten), it wouldn't need a lot of kinetic energy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 17:06:17 GMT
Sometimes in Shinkendo, they set up the mat diagonally so you can cut it horizontally with the same effect as if you were cutting diagonally, if that makes any sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 17:52:01 GMT
Sometimes in Shinkendo, they set up the mat diagonally so you can cut it horizontally with the same effect as if you were cutting diagonally, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I was thinking about something like that. I would have to set that up on my own. When we do cutting practice and their are 6 other people waiting for their turn, it is hard to take the time to set something like that up. Adam, you asked if a wrap can cut through mail. No... but neither can most other shots with the true edge. However, like any other shots it may break bone. On a light helmet any shot will be stunning. It is also important to consider that when we fight, after one good hit is made the fight stops. In a real battle against mailed opponents the fight does not stop after one good hit. You may have to land 20 good blows before you weaken your opponent enough to put the point in his eye. Take at look at this vid. Compare my wraps to other shots I make in terms of speed an power. Look at the effect on the pell which weighs about 70 lbs. Do you see the sword slowing down on wraps? or does it look more like a continuation of the same motion as what would be a true edge cut. The wrap is the same as an on-side shot, the difference is only in at what point of the sing contact is made. The wrist naturally rotates as you bring it across your body. The only issue is do you hit before or after the rotation. Wraps are hard shots that requires good instruction and a lot of practice. That is one of the reasons, I think, that archers used fachons and other single edged weapons. A double edged arming sword can only be used to its true potential by someone who dedicates themselves to using its so.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Apr 24, 2008 20:27:38 GMT
Archers used whatever weapons they wanted. And a VAST porportion chose a double edged arming sword. I think it's an absurd conclusion to draw that people used single edged swords because double edged swords took so much more skill to use. ANY weapon only reaches it's true potential when used by a master, that applies to single edged swords as well.
I think that zwerchau could cut through a mat, but that's only my opinion.
Well said.
|
|