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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2008 18:48:20 GMT
I have been learning some medieval dagger fighting techniques in my WMA practice. Very interesting stuff. We do dagger and wrestling half way through the 3 hour practice. It serves as a break from longsword. A few cool things I want to mention, is that there are a number of dagger guards that resemble the longsword guards in name like Vam Tag and Plow. There is also a very cool guard that resembles half-swording. You hold the dagger by the grip and place the other hand on the blade. It is referred to as "shield guard" or the German "Fryen hutt". One of the primary goals when fighting dagger vs dagger is to disarm the other person or lock up the dagger-arm. There is a very cool "scissor lock" for this. A loose dagger is very dangerous. In longsword you can often eliminate the threat posed by the other person's sword by positioning your body. A longsword needs to be swung with speed or the point must be pulled back to be effective. A dagger on the other hand can stab with only a six inch pullback from any position. There are no slices or slashes in any of the manuals. We speculate that medieval people wore 3 to 4 layers of linen and could not be cut with a dagger. No thin T-shirts like today. So all the strikes are over-stabs with the dagger pointed down of under-stabs with the dagger pointed up. Reference material on dagger fighting is very limited and the drawings are hard to understand in many cases. I would like to hear other opinions from people who study dagger. Here is a link to look at: www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/dagger1/Talhoffer.phpIf you click on the picture, you see a picture demonstration.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2008 19:01:21 GMT
While not instantly disabling, a slash with a dagger (with a 8-14" blade length), would penetrate the skin, drawing blood. At that point, you have weakening of the limb, slippery footing and grip due to blood, and the mental fight of "OSHT, I've been cut!". In any knife fight, you have to accept the fact that you will not walk away uninjured. It would be interesting to look at, as several friends and I have free-sparred under a more "Disable ASAP" ideal (rubber daggers or not, ex-military street fighting). I wonder what their end goal was. Disable, kill, disarm, etc, and how much societal expectations impacted what they did (aka. no holds barred, don't do certain things, etc.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2008 19:16:35 GMT
Yes, slices to the hands and wrists would be quite effective in disabling your opponent. As tsafa said, however, slashes to other areas of the body were often ineffective due to the layers of clothing.
I find it interesting that almost every aspect of WMA builds upon the basics of grappling. Daggers are merely extensions of grappling. It's also an important part of sword techniques. Arming sword a little less, but definately important to longsword fencing.
One of the favorite methods of taking down an armoured knight was wrestling him to the ground and stabbing him with your dagger, either through a gap in the armour or through his eyeslit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 2:19:08 GMT
Actually slicing to hands and wrists would only be effective if your opponent isn't wearing gloves. Dagger fighting consists of alot of grappling and stabbing, the most common areas for thrusts being; throat, cartoids, base of the spine, hamstrings, groin, femoral artery, kidneys, that sort of thing. The legs were the most common target especially with a long dagger because there was less protection.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 2:33:14 GMT
One of my favorite videos ever psoted on youtube.
The man in the hakama and the man in the red tights are both extremely skilled, alathough the others are just as good (those two just seemed tos tand out as the best).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 2:55:17 GMT
Hate to burst your bubble Ramm but those knife techniques are not medieval they are modern combat techniques. The guy in the hakama was using fairly standard ninjutsu although he was more sideways in his stance which indicates that he has other martial arts experience, the guy in the red tights looked like he was using some military CQB techniques and a few pekiti tirsia techniques. The guy in blue was very skilled, better than the guy in the tights by my reckoning but not by a lot. I don't think the other two guys can hold a candle to cristian and alexander personally. What they are doing there is what I teach to two of my students although what I teach has other elements and strikes as well. The knife grab takedown that cristian uses on alexander is a standard nijutsu technique. Very cool to see some knife fighting though, especially the non staged stuff. I don't think the knife throw that alexander did to cristian would have been effective enough to incapacitate him.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 2:59:23 GMT
Sorry BW, that's incorrect.
Please read some Tallhoffer.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 3:05:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 3:16:10 GMT
Which part is incorrect, Ramm?
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 3:22:16 GMT
That it's not medieval.
It most certainly is, that's not even a debatable point. Plate 171 clearly shows that the knife throw has power.
I implore you to look at the final link and not just for me to be right. It's incredibly vital to the study of medieval martial arts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 3:50:38 GMT
Wow let's grab a dagger blade with our bare hands, very vital indeed.
I don't see any double strikes Ramm, I don't see anything even remotely resembling what they were doing in the video Ramm. Most of those positions in that manual seem like a trade off which is not a good position to be in.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 4:15:52 GMT
then we must be looking at the wrong manual Blossfechter is a very well respected organization, so I trust them. sword/dagger grabbing was extremely possible and it's one of the fallacies of JSA criticism of WMA that it can't be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 4:21:05 GMT
I know it can be done but it will inflict damage. Well I looked at the manual that you posted a link to and I don't see any double strikes or combination strikes. Better to fight with one fist closed rather than try to grab the blade. I do JSA and I also do a derivative of WMA and combat techniques as well, so I do know what I am talking about, this is not just theoretical techniques or experience I am talking about. I do training just about everyday of the week and I do ninjutsu on sundays and I teach as well. Take the above however you want.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 29, 2008 5:10:02 GMT
then we must be looking at the wrong manual Blossfechter is a very well respected organization, so I trust them. sword/dagger grabbing was extremely possible and it's one of the fallacies of JSA criticism of WMA that it can't be done. Unless the dagger was sharp. If you were to grab a sharp dagger and someone was to yank it out, it would leave a huge gash.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 5:17:20 GMT
That was my point s3th or drive it through your hand into your wrist or even your throat, not a very intelligent option unless you are wearing gauntlets.
I guess our difference Ramm is that I actively practice them, whereas from what I have gathered from you, you are speaking theoretically? I'm not attacking you here just trying to work out what level of experience your comments are coming out of. Reading a manual and talking about it is all well and good but if your arguing theory against practical experience you will lose 9 times out of 10. Again this is not a personal attack simply an inquiry as to your level of proficiency and training.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 29, 2008 5:56:34 GMT
I didn't read your post right away, lol. I seen his post and was in a rush to respond to it. You can think of it as slight back-up.
And another thing is that when people give lessons, they forget the fact that other people can be just as trained.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 6:11:05 GMT
Speaking of practical vs theoretical. The Dagger Instructor in my WMA practice uses me as a test subject often. He performs a joint lock or a disarmament on me, if I am able to muscle out of it he accepts that he needs to reinterpret the technique. There is a few techniques that are not completely understood yet. When the technique is done right, I can not resist. I am usually screaming at him to stop if it is a joint lock. This guy is a one of Christian Tobler's Scholars so he know better then any of us.
The point is that our understanding of the manuals is not set in stone. If you look at Tobler's first book, "Secrets...." and compare it to his second book "Fighting..." he has totally reinterpreted the "Schielhau" (squinting stroke). He has changed the starting position of Vam Tag too so it is further down and more relaxed rather then up by the ear. He has also reinterpreted the stepping of the "Krumphau". There are many other changes too that I can't remember. There is a third book coming out that will have even more re-interpretations. Nothing is set in stone folks. There is still a lot of experimentation and discovery going on based on actual fighting. It does not mean that the techniques in the manuals is wrong, it means that our understanding of those techniques is wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 6:44:14 GMT
s3th: Oh goodness, there are people out there that will absolutely mop the floor with me, I am not claiming to be some martial arts guru, even though I teach I am still a student, my students and I work together to bring maximum efficiency, nothing is set in stone and I am open to having my students interpret my techniques where necessary.
Those who apply themselves to the scholarly pursuits and the practical pursuits do know more than any of us. I was commenting on the fact that I didn't see much "medieval" techniques in the vid that was posted, what they seemed to be doing was pekiti tirsia and ninjutsu, not that there is anything wrong with either of those as I practice both myself in varying forms. From the manual Ramm posted I didn't see anything like that in the video.
I want one of the long warhammers with the weird spikey bits on the the end though, that looks seriously awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 6:59:39 GMT
I've seen a lot of the techniques used in that vid in the historical manuals (I just browse them for interests sake at the moment till I am injury free and can train, but I can't remember which ones!) such as the throws. Perhaps there are similiarities between the styles you've mentioned and the western styles? I for one notice quite a bit of similiarities between some parts of bujinkan (informal training with a buddy and internet research) and taijiquan (I've had a little practice with yang style long form)...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 11:09:15 GMT
I was talking about the double strikes and the methods of striking but no one is understanding what I am saying so I will leave it at this.
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