Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 16:24:04 GMT
See, the thing is, if running away is an option, by all means, run away...but then it's not a knife FIGHT anymore. In a knife fight, small movements is better as you can stay within in range to attack back after you evade. I know, all the self defense teaches you to do wide evades to try and keep you from getting cut...but from being in several actual knife fight (no options to run...for either party), I can tell you that all that does is get you tired faster then the other guy.
As for twitch cuts being dangerous...it can be...but in all honesty as long as your moving away even a little bit, it won't cut deep enough to do anything serious.
And if your in a fight with weapons, you'd better be willing to die because that is a very real outcome(and and you WILL get cut). The we can keep you from getting cut that they teach you in various martial arts class doesn't work when they REALLY want you dead. Against a mugger, yeah...against an assassin...not so much.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 2:20:37 GMT
Against a mugger, yeah...against an assassin...not so much.[/img] Ah that explains a lot, I've never had the opportunity to fight an assassin, you must lead a really interesting life to be fighting assassins, are they vampire ninja assassins? In a knife fight where both assailants are armed I have still been taught it is better to evade with larger motions and that your knife work should work with the natural instincts of your body, when you body gets that shot of adrenaline your motor functions are not good enough to make small precise movements with a blade or with your hands. If you've been in a couple knife fights you will know that most guys who attack with knives make wide sweeping cuts. Even some of the best knife fighting systems in the world have those wide sweeping cuts as part and parcel of their training. The system I teach is about moving into range of your assailant and puncturing him in six or seven places before he can take a swipe at you but that is just me, I still have some sweeping motions because they are so effective and if your hands are moving in sweeping movements it throws your opponent off balance. Let me ask you a question cold, when you hit someone do you hit them with an open hand or a fist?
|
|
|
Post by alvin on May 17, 2008 2:39:58 GMT
QuoteAh that explains a lot, I've never had the opportunity to fight an assassin, you must lead a really interesting life to be fighting assassins, are they vampire ninja assassins?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 2:43:25 GMT
Alvin: Nice ;D Also to quote someone you put [ quote ] then you put whatever the quote is here and then you finish with [ / quote ] without the spaces. So [ quote ] quote text here [ / quote ] without the spaces
|
|
|
Post by alvin on May 17, 2008 2:47:50 GMT
Thanks blood...never could figure that one out. I'll give it a try when the next opportunity presents itself. Karma 2 U.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 11:01:55 GMT
Yeah well BW, since I got in into an actual sword fight, been shot, stabbed and knocked out on several occasions as a youthful hooligan, I did have quite the interesting life. I have actually been in over 20 knife fights. Yeah the first few, that adrenaline messes you up something fierce...but then you get use to it and you get better. I got lucky the first few times that I didn't die.
Yes knife fighting has sweepin motions...and they can works at times...but generally not. It's like a back kick. Yeah it works when the situation is right...but against good fighters, it's almost never a good idea to turn your back on them. Knowing how to do those isn't bad unless you don't learn WHEN you should use them.
As for fighting unarmed, I hit with an open hand...but I prefer using grapples and redirects over striking.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 11:13:23 GMT
Leading an interesting life Cold? Of these 20 knife fights how many of your assailants were competent? trained? How many of these knife fights did you instigate? A large part of knife fighting are those sweeping motions which you seem so dismissive towards, a good knife fighter will use those sweeping motions because they translate to blocks, counters and reversals. Sweeping motions in knife combat cannot be compared to a back kick because they are different animals. Sweeping motions in knife fights work, they are what will keep you alive if you know what you are doing. Any idiot can walk up and stab someone or swing wildly and accidentally cut something, but to use a sweeping motion with the training behind it is one of the most effective techniques you can use against an attacker. It is better to slice your opponent up rather than stick your knife in them because you may not hit something vital with the stab and then you lose your weapon against someone competent. I have been in knife fights as well, no actual swords fights but lots of knife fights. I know redirect blocks that use sweeping motions to defend and attack at the same time whilst making it look to your opponent that you are switching sides you are attacking on, even though the blade is going to loop around the head and come in at the same angle as when you first launch the strike, that would not be possible without sweeping motions. At least you know how to hit someone properly
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 17:56:31 GMT
Yeah well, I was a hooligan as a teenager. Nothing worse then smart bored rich teenagers for causing mayhem . Many of the knife fight were against well trained assailants. The main thing I have against using a lot of sweeping motions is because of the twitch cuts. It is one of those things where if your doing a sweeping motion, at the end of it, I can deliver a twich cut with little to no fear of getting retaliated against. While I won't be doing much with it, I can do it without getting hit back. Yeah I get the idea behind using sweeping motions...but blocks only work if I am attacking with large motions myself. Same thing with counters. Using it to position a knife however is a good reason to use it. I'm not saying NEVER use such motions...just not as the primary attack/defend mode (unless you like the idea of death from a 1000 cuts).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 18, 2008 16:25:15 GMT
If you can twitch cut after a sweeping strike or defence the person wielding the knife hasn't done the right thing. If you can deliver a twitch cut without fear of retaliation, your opponent is not very skilled at all. I disagree that blocks only work if both the assailant and the defender are using sweeping motions. Depends how you define a counter. I use sweeping motions as a primary attack and defense, sometimes both at once and I have not been cut once in the fights I have been in. I imagine our styles are very very different from what I am hearing. Last thought I will leave you with even if you can twitch cut with no fear of retaliation, where is your opponents other hand? Feet? Head? I know that my knife techniques work with my fists and feet. So block and twitch cut and I won't be there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 1:10:11 GMT
See, here's the thing...I too have hands, feet, heads and elbows. If you can use em, why can't I?!? We could get into who's the better one at using those, but for the sake of sanity, I think it would be best to say me using my extra bits and you using your extra bits cancel each other out. Yes it doesn't REALLY work that way...but tring to explain that over the net is a exorcise in masochism...and no offense, but I don't swing that way BW.
As for the twitch cut...see, the thing with sweeping motions is that it has to either reach a zenith of an arc or stop...and at that point and split second before and after, no matter how good you are, your vulnerable. If you do as timing permits, your fine (like say when I leave an opening). You do it willy nilly and I'll cut you a 1000 times.
And yes it does sound like we fight differently. I wait and watch a lot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2008 21:13:20 GMT
Hi guys. Interesting thread. Am not particularly clued up on WMAs so I am looking forward to checking out all these links. Very surprised to see the blade grabbing technique. Honestly, my first time to see it depicted. So I guess it really was used back in the day...although like bloodwraith, and many others perhaps, I don't think this technique would translate so well today... Tsafa, just an observation. You wrote: One of the primary goals when fighting dagger vs dagger is to disarm the other person or lock up the dagger-arm. I have been doing PKT for about a year now and am very happy with the fundamental concepts, techniques etc when it comes to weapons. But in PKT - as I understand it - there is far less emphasis on disarming and locking than one might imagine. It really does seem to be more - if not all - about your own bladed attack/counter attack. So I am looking forward to reading more about the WMA emphasis on disarming/locking up... Finally, regarding the whole big vs small movements for evading a knife attack - I can see where both views are coming from. In my opinion, larger ranges of evasive movement do put you (more) out of position to deliver your own counter. I'm only speaking from my experience so far with PKT but the movements we use, while not being minuscule, are by no means massive sweeping expanses either! However, I will also admit that the idea of that perfectly timed, almost imperceptible shift in body angle, delivered when facing someone who is trying their best to stab you, repeatedly is pure daydreaming. Whenever I have seen anyone (anyone who knows their stuff) - be it a sensei, sifu, guro or bouncer - demonstrate a knife defense/counter, they always show a clear physical and mental 'inclination' to get well out of that blade's path...! iskander
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2008 0:30:14 GMT
However, I will also admit that the idea of that perfectly timed, almost imperceptible shift in body angle, delivered when facing someone who is trying their best to stab you, repeatedly is pure daydreaming. Hehe, yeah...I don't think anyone is saying that works...unless your an anime character anyways. Although I have had a few instances where a small shift has kept me from getting skewered or cut seriously...but that is more luck then skill at that point. I just happen to catch an attack I didn't see at the coner of my eye and shift(and pray it's enough) to try to not die type deal. It can happen...but I'm not betting my life on it hehe .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2008 4:05:31 GMT
Isk: Thankyou for weighing in, when you say PKT are you talking about Pekiti Tirsia? I have some small skill in Pekiti Tirsia and it is about getting out of the way of the opponents blade if unarmed and if you are armed trying to circle around your opponents circles to put your blade some where vital. When I talk about sweeping blocks and things I don't mean full motion blocks, they are very controlled but they do have a sweeping element to them, especially the technique of the blue worm.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2008 4:54:43 GMT
This has been a very interesting and informative thread so far. What do you guys think of Alfred Hutton's system of dagger fighting? www.thearma.org/pdf/ColdSteel.pdfIt starts on page 152. The PDF takes awhile to load, so I suggest opening up another window (unless someone can explain to me how to post individual pictures, as I have next to no skill with computers at all).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2008 17:04:09 GMT
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on Jun 1, 2008 8:07:50 GMT
This has been a very interesting and informative thread so far. What do you guys think of Alfred Hutton's system of dagger fighting? www.thearma.org/pdf/ColdSteel.pdfIt starts on page 152. The PDF takes awhile to load, so I suggest opening up another window (unless someone can explain to me how to post individual pictures, as I have next to no skill with computers at all). Here is a better pdf version I posted awhile ago. /index.cgi?board=wma&action=display&thread=3595
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 10:14:16 GMT
Very surprised to see the blade grabbing technique. Honestly, my first time to see it depicted. So I guess it really was used back in the day...although like bloodwraith, and many others perhaps, I don't think this technique would translate so well today... As mentioned before in the thread, historical daggers aren't always sharpened on both edges (or even one) and one can hold a sharpened blade quite easily if the technique is correct, such as in halfswording.
|
|