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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 19:10:45 GMT
Regarding this matter, I'd rather listen to an Italian gentleman from the 14th century. Best to begin by assuming that Fiore knew what the hell he was doing, since he's fought these duels for real and none of us have.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 19:47:15 GMT
I would correct you slightly. People trusted Fiore to teach them things THEY would need to survive in a duel "for real". AFAIK there is no real documentation he worked out these things in duels by himself (aka. self validation of his style).
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 31, 2008 2:22:09 GMT
No documentation, yeah. At least none that's been discovered so far. But would people who had a reasonable likelihood of going into a fight or duel have been likely to hire someone to train them, who didn't have any real experience? And his teachings have been preserved for posterity? ...In a day before "mass marketing" and the internet allowed a personality to be anything they wanted just by saying so?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 2:43:35 GMT
I definitely agree with your point of having real experience before hiring. Just pointing out a slight semantic difference between "He's fought these duels for real and we haven't" vs. "He taught OTHERS how to fight for real." Just trying to keep it in perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 6:42:36 GMT
I just sat down and watched that vid you posted Ramm with my sensei and he has alot of knowledge about western martial arts and eastern martial arts and he agrees with my assessment and takes it one step further that predominantly the techniques in the video are bujinkan techniques. The thing about medieval techniques and ways of combat have been lost and it is very hard to find anything comprehensive on western dagger fighting or unarmed combat.
Just my two cents.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jan 31, 2008 9:17:45 GMT
I just sat down and watched that vid you posted Ramm with my sensei and he has alot of knowledge about western martial arts and eastern martial arts and he agrees with my assessment and takes it one step further that predominantly the techniques in the video are bujinkan techniques. The thing about medieval techniques and ways of combat have been lost and it is very hard to find anything comprehensive on western dagger fighting or unarmed combat. Just my two cents. It's not hard to find western dagger or unarmed combat, Sydney Anglo clams that there is at least 56 German manuals that address wrestling and/or dagger fighting. All fencing manuals have a core weapon that they use to teach the foundation of their style. Liechtenauer a master from Germany core weapon was the long sword, George Silver's core weapon was the English shortsword, and Italian master Fiore Dei Liberi's core weapon was the dagger. look at the dagger techniques from Hans Talhoffer that Tsafa posted. The Blossfecher vid that Ram posted in the beginning of the demonstration before Cristian comes, they are doing WMA. When Cristian comes in Alexander isn't doing Western dagger any more, it looks to me that he as training in other styles, but I don't know for sure. I found the tread that Alexander Neppl posted in SFI about the vid. forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=83847I wish Alex was doing western dagger against Cristian that would of been cool to see.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 9:35:54 GMT
Fair enough, if you want to believe that it is WMA then I won't stop you, I am just wasting my time now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 9:44:17 GMT
I'm just speculating here, but I suspect that the masters would have had a lot of sparring experience and less or no actual duels. I don't think you can do too many duels without receiving an injury that would end your ability to use a sword. I think it is more likely that he let his Noble students do the dueling while he watched and further learned. I think he was a shrewed business man first, fencing master second. We can also consider the circumstances of Time and Place. Was Fiore a member of a Noble family? Nobles fought for ransom money and because that is what thugs do. Not likely. We would be able to trace a noble linage. The political factions of his day was the the "Guelphs" who supported the Pope vs. "Ghibellines" who supported the Emperor. This was a good dueling reason. If Fiore was either, we would now. In Germany as a student, I don't think he would have gotten involved in petty dues. I don't see any reason for Fiore to have dueled in his day other then something stupid like some guy on the street insulted his girlfriend. p.s. I took a more analytical of that Vid Ram posted. They mix a lot of stuff up in there so you have to look at each engagement separately. I think it is mostly Stage fighting (off-line attacks and out of range attacks). There are a few WMA dagger moves in there (I think I saw a scissor lock preformed) and I think they mix some oriental stuff in there too (the guy in the blue & black). This is entertaining to watch but trying to learn from it will leave you confused as to what is what. I don't think it is worth fighting over because it is obviously theatrical. They want to amuse their audience with a variety of things, including a knife throw that not likely stop anyone, and he just threw away his weapon. You kids need to cut down on the sugar and caffeine Bloodwraith, what are Bujinkan techniques. Perhaps I am missing something. It is very likely that some of the WMA moves that I think I saw exist in Asian arts too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2008 13:39:18 GMT
The other thing is that maybe you are seeing what you want to see. You have done Eastern martial arts, aka. you see EMA. Ramm has done WMA, he sees WMA. There are only so many ways a body can move safely around a sharp object.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 31, 2008 18:09:08 GMT
I'll be so bold to state that your sensei isn't up to par on his WMA knowledge, then.
As I said before, and oswyn said above, just because something is done in bujinkan doesn't mean it isn't also done in WMA> They aren't mutually exclusive arts, and there is noticable overlap. What WMAers practice (and no, I don't consider myself one, nor do I ever hope to though I have a bit in the past) is a living martial art. It's learned from manuscripts and medieval artifacts, but it is just as legitimate (if not more so) than any JSA.
Unfortunately tsafa, it's hard to take you seriously when you've chosen to ignore historical evidence. Why I'm drawn into this again is beyond me, but end of discussion on my part. It's like trying to convince people that the sky is blue and they refuse to believe it ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2008 18:52:26 GMT
I would correct you slightly. People trusted Fiore to teach them things THEY would need to survive in a duel "for real". AFAIK there is no real documentation he worked out these things in duels by himself (aka. self validation of his style). I am confused by this remark. Are you saying that you have more real experience with actual sword combat than any man-at-arms from the middle ages? Have some humility, man.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2008 4:19:07 GMT
No, completely missed my point.
There is no (or very little) evidence Fiore fought duels.
There is lots of evidence Fiore taught people (back then) how to defend themselves.
The only place I am mentioned is correcting an earlier post. Not claiming any experience with actual sword combat. Not quite sure how you got that from my post.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Feb 2, 2008 5:26:15 GMT
Fiore fought five unarmored sword duels, he also was known to have fought in the constant wars occurring throughout northern Italy during the late 14th century. Think about it my friends, if you were going to fight in a battle or a duel you would want to find a master who had experience in battles and/or duels then a master who only has sparring experience. Lets put this in a more modern approach. Lets say you had a chance to fight in UFC but you don't know nothing about MMA, so they let you pick one of the two trainers on their list to get you ready for your fight. One of the two trainers is a nobody that as never fought before, just as sparring experience and the other one is Randy Couture. Which one would you pick? I would pick Randy Couture. ;D Now back to dagger fighting. I have two good books western dagger fighting. "Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat" by Jason Vail www.paladin-press.com/images/mrdc.jpg"Highland Knife Fighting" by Christopher Scott Thompson www.paladin-press.com/images/pe_hkf.jpgBoth are really good books if you want to study western dagger fighting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 1:21:25 GMT
Thanks for the correction. I wasnt aware that there was actual evidence that he fought duels. As I said earlier, he very well could have (and probably did). Just pointing out a possible semantic difference that could be problematic (when extrapolating).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 19:40:01 GMT
Think about it my friends, if you were going to fight in a battle or a duel you would want to find a master who had experience in battles and/or duels then a master who only as sparring experience. My point exactly. People alive today only have "sparring experience" and you have to suspend judgment when one of these sparring masters looks at a medieval manuscript and says that they couldn't have done it that way. There has got to be more Bullshido generated concerning knife fighting than anything else on the planet.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Feb 4, 2008 18:44:50 GMT
I know what your talking about Kortoso.
I remember reading a article in Tactical Knife about a new training knife that shocks when the point and edges hits the opponent. He went to some martial artiest who were doing fancy knife moves and let them train with his new training knife. They found out fast that their fancy moves didn't work and they were very hesitant to use their fancy moves because they kept getting shock.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 22:20:07 GMT
For the sake of giving Fiore all the credit that he is due... Razor could you please give us some more information on those duels and some references. I can't find a single reference to Fiore dueling.
I know there is some reference in the prologue to the Flos Duellatorium. In it he states he took part in numerous battles around Italy between 1380 and 1400. It does not say in what capacity. Did he train men? Lead armies? Fight in the ranks? He would have been around 40 years old in 1380 and 60 years old in 1400.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 4, 2008 23:37:53 GMT
We have plenty of references of people fighting in their 40's and a suprising amount of people fighting in their 60's. I'd not be suprised if fiore still taught at this old. I do not publicly agree with you
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Feb 5, 2008 1:38:40 GMT
Ram I think what Kortoso was saying is that there is a lot of crap out there for knife fighting and to watch out for it. Tsafa you ask some good questions. I'm not an expert, I only have some books and magazines that talk a little about him. They pretty much say the same thing so instead of writing it all down,I'm just going to but this site down. www.stmartinsacademy.com/researchfiore.htmAnd because of your questions I did some research and found two different PDFs on Fior, they are both on his introduction and his wrestling and dagger. I'm giving karma Tsafa because I don't think I would of look if you didn't ask those questions. www.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Fiore%20Getty%20MS%20Representation%20(Translation).pdfwww.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Fiore%20PD%20MS%20Representation%20(Translation).pdfGregory D. Mele writes in "WMA Illustrated" "Though he remains a shadowy figure, as the "father of Italian martial arts," dei Liberi's fame was still great enough to produce two biographies over the ensuing centuries and to have his name appropriated today for both the main drag of his home town and a rather lackluster winery." Jason Vail writes in his book "Fiore is unique among the old masters in that probably more is known about him and his career than anyone else."
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Feb 5, 2008 2:59:16 GMT
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