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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 11:20:56 GMT
Bloodwraith, we may not have been understanding what you mean because you weren't saying much about it.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 29, 2008 14:32:26 GMT
s3th: Oh goodness, there are people out there that will absolutely mop the floor with me, I am not claiming to be some martial arts guru, even though I teach I am still a student, my students and I work together to bring maximum efficiency, nothing is set in stone and I am open to having my students interpret my techniques where necessary. Those who apply themselves to the scholarly pursuits and the practical pursuits do know more than any of us. I was commenting on the fact that I didn't see much "medieval" techniques in the vid that was posted, what they seemed to be doing was pekiti tirsia and ninjutsu, not that there is anything wrong with either of those as I practice both myself in varying forms. From the manual Ramm posted I didn't see anything like that in the video. I want one of the long warhammers with the weird spikey bits on the the end though, that looks seriously awesome. I find it weird that their are other trained people in the world. I live in a tiny town and am one of the first ninjutsu students. I often forget the different skill levels of people. (I have my own fighting style I developed before martial arts, but just never got to use it.) In my opinion, you seem to know a lot on could probably hold your own against a lot of people, which in it's own is rewarding. I just place to much faith in the fact I am used to getting outta things, but I live in a non-real real world... If that made sense. My posts my me sound like I am over doing it, But I just live in a small sempriniesque town of people who know nothing. LMAO ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:23:28 GMT
Vy: In the video alexander, the guy in the red tights does alot of rapid stabs that look like CQB, the angle, the direction and the way the body is positioned. Cristian, the guy in the hakama, he is definitely using nijutsu techniques, those aren't really western techniques, I could probably comb through the video and give you example after example if that is what you wish.
s3th: I know what you mean, what is important to remember is this, no matter how good you think you are or know you are, there is always someone out there who can clean your clock. I know I have the abilities to defeat most people but when you are talking a high level of training I am iffy on my ability to defeat them without taking too much damage. I imagine I could eventually draw with them but we would both be very badly injured. My ninjutsu instructor I am on a par with but he would clean my clock if I only used ninjutsu against him. I have come up against very few people that I consider able to beat me, not that that is bragging.
For me it isn't the ability to hold my own or beat people, it is the ability for my body to stay strong and healthy and to protect me and mine if there is ever the need. Even crappy small towns can be dangerous places. It is good to have faith in yourself but don't get overconfident, that is all I am saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:28:48 GMT
Vy: In the video alexander, the guy in the red tights does alot of rapid stabs that look like CQB, the angle, the direction and the way the body is positioned. Cristian, the guy in the hakama, he is definitely using nijutsu techniques, those aren't really western techniques, I could probably comb through the video and give you example after example if that is what you wish. No not at all mate, I was just curious as to how you saw it... for instance a lot of the gross movements seemed western to me but my knowledge is quite superficial and I certainly couldn't critique the finer points. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:32:27 GMT
Umm, Bloodwraith, when the guy in the Hakama comes out, the caption states that he is using "Asian variations" of the techniques. So they openly admit that he is not using European medieval techniques. I'll take your word on it being ninjitsu, since I can't tell either way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:34:44 GMT
Vy: Fair enough mate, maybe the way I see it might be very different to others. I am just saying it like I see it, I am quite happy to be proved wrong but no one has presented evidence to show me such. The link Ramm sent me to didn't have anything like alot of those techinques. Cristian in blue I will stake my reputation on that he is using nijutsu. Although most of the western martial arts we have these days and CQB are based on ancient techniques derived from ninjutsu and the like. Just my opinion, take it how you will
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Post by oos3thoo on Jan 29, 2008 16:36:45 GMT
Thanks for the advise! There are few people I listen to and have respect for, and you are one of them. A true teacher!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 16:44:16 GMT
s3th: I am as much a student as anyone else, however I very much enjoy teaching to people who will help me enhance my martial abilities and teaching people who question the efficacy and suggest other ways to make the techniques even better.
Darky: Yeah, I know that they stated it but there is no variation about it, it is pure ninjutsu. The other thing is that the medieval combat guys are also using elements of asian martial arts. They are not using purely medieval and sometimes they aren't even using medieval combat techniques.
Sorry I don't want to sound like an immodest know it all, I am just calling it as I see it from my own practical experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 17:42:35 GMT
Should we move this or start a new thread in a more appropriate place? About the middle of page 1 this was derailed, and is pretty far off the OP. Not sure what the ettique is on this board about thread de-railment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 18:30:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 19:36:11 GMT
Not to burst your bubble, but that wikipedia page says usually one or both edges were sharpened... Only the cruciform variant of the blade had no edge, just a point, and that one was used only for the expressed purpose of fighting, and there are only a few surviving examples...
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Post by rammstein on Jan 29, 2008 20:10:52 GMT
Rondel daggers were usually single edged from what I see.
BW, you're practical experience means little if you don't recreate sources. Since my only experience in european sword fighting has been through the study of period manuscripts and recreation of said activities, I feel I'm more qualified in terms of putting such techniques into practice than you are. Not a personal attack, just an obvservation.
As said, you'll find that every single historical fencing student will disagree with you on your assessemtn that grabbing the blade will get you cut. The fact is - it's taught in every manual I've had the pleasure to go threw (which included tallhaoffer's 15th c. manuscript , I.33, and a couple of others) involve bbalde grabbing. Honestly (and this is not an attack) I trust them more than I trust you in terms of practical experience.
You're claim is like saying I can't be a doctor because I've not had cancer. Whereas a cancer victim would be far more knowledgable than a cancer researcher.
Blade grabbing is, again, not a point I'm willing to argue, there is plenty of proof for it and none against it other than modern "OMG swords are sharp!" exclamations. If anyone feels to bury their heads in the sand at this point, I don't feel the need yet to try to correct them.
That's probably the wisest thing said so far. We find that there is immense crossover between western martial arts and eastern ones. To call an act eastern just because that was where you first saw it used doesn't mean that it's not also a western one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 20:29:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 21:09:31 GMT
Rondel daggers were usually single edged from what I see. BW, you're practical experience means little if you don't recreate sources. Since my only experience in european sword fighting has been through the study of period manuscripts and recreation of said activities, I feel I'm more qualified in terms of putting such techniques into practice than you are. Not a personal attack, just an obvservation. As said, you'll find that every single historical fencing student will disagree with you on your assessemtn that grabbing the blade will get you cut. The fact is - it's taught in every manual I've had the pleasure to go threw (which included tallhaoffer's 15th c. manuscript , I.33, and a couple of others) involve bbalde grabbing. Honestly (and this is not an attack) I trust them more than I trust you in terms of practical experience. One of the biggest points I think people are missing is that Medieval swords were not razor sharp. They hit armour, they hit shields. They were sharp enough, but I have grabbed plenty of swords, some of which were sharp (historically speaking, not razor cut-paper sharp) without getting harmed. Part of it is in how you grab, where you put pressure, etc. The other is that the type of edge put on them. If it is impossible to grab a sharp blade without risk of injury, please explain why Half-swording is taught. In a full-speed fight, you are still grabbing a blade. I would also agree that there are several cross-overs, but also that there are slight differences. Keep in mind what you see in plates is simply a taste, enough to get the person hired to teach all they knew. If everything was in the plates, why bother hiring the person?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 21:15:43 GMT
I've looked at drawings up through page 41 (I was examining the Latin--period/ME and orthography--of course, not the topic of this thread), and in all but two (32/41) the combatants are gloveless. Why? Do some dueling codes establish whether opponents will be gloved or gloveless? For combat, ancient or modern, the gloved hand seems desirable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 21:21:11 GMT
Yes, I don't understand it either. The first two links I pictured, they're not wearing gloves. The last one they are. I too though dueling gloves would have been common practice. It doesn't state anything in the text? (Unlikely I know, but I can't read Latin, which I will have to remedy)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 22:22:01 GMT
Not sure who exactly started this thread at Myarmoury, but it addresses the same things (and sounds like this board). www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12245 Most of them agree that grabbing a blade will not instantly harm you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 22:42:23 GMT
I recently posted some pics of a suitcase I cut up. The sword I used was not a razor by any means. I could grab the blade (I prefer to wear gloves). The only way to really cut skin is to press and draw it. Its effectiveness in cutting comes more from speed rather then sharpness. This was further proven when sharper but shorter swords proved to be less effective in cutting. The longer blade makes a larger arch and is moving faster. It was also more effective at breaking up the internal structure which included some steel tubing without damaging the blade edge. The other sharper/shorter blade had less effect and showed signs of dulling. I also used a shorter/heavier blade that was less effective too.
Here is a link to that experiment: /index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1198305268
Some other research and experimentation shows that the tip of a typical European blade is moving at about 180 mph. The is based on my personal calculations and a radar test by ShooterMike. A katana on the other hand is moving at about 60 mph based on testing done with an expert on Myth Busters. The slower speed of a Katana would seem to be the reason why they need to be razor sharp to make effective cuts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2008 1:58:57 GMT
Swords are one thing but daggers are supposed to be sharp, very sharp. Anyway I will leave you esteemed and learned gentlemen to your discussion since clearly I don't know anything.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 30, 2008 2:22:22 GMT
Ya you do. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I think you don't know anything
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