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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 12, 2011 2:19:04 GMT
My first real sword, my dream, Brenno's Dark Fable, Zhiadau Razuur. @ Elheru Aran - i mean no disrespect, but you seem to place little value on a craftsman's time. 2 minutes to you may well take as much as 20 minutes from someone's day. I was surprised by your comments to say the least. Keep in mind , you are one of hundreds that may share the same feelings and if all were to "kick the tires" it could be a serious detriment to both the smith and his clients who have paid for his time.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 12, 2011 4:59:27 GMT
Your not a "customer" till you actually buy something... your not even a potential customer if you do not have the ability to buy something... your just wasting a guys time. It likely takes a custom smith a bit more then 2 minutes to deal with these requests also... they have to read the whole e-mail... which often contains specs and info and history and all sorts of blah blah blah about _____'s dream sword... then they have to think a bit about how they would go about creating it, how much time that would take... and what to charge. THEN they have to reply to the e-mail. Often their will be follow up e-mails as well... ...the point being, it likely takes a LOT more the 2 minutes to field random questions from someone who has no means and no intention of actually buying something. That is wasted time... and its not good customer service, because, since they are not buying anything, they are not customers. The more people that send these e-mails... the more time it takes away from the custom smith who is self-employed in a field/industry that does not pay that much to start with. I have too much respect for our craftsmen to think they should have to put up with that crap. I don't send questions to a custom maker unless I have the means and interest to buy something... I feel I would want that same respect of my time.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 12, 2011 14:13:42 GMT
@ Sean (shadowhowler) - I couldn't agree more, and actually deleted a rather longwinded post before posting my previous comments for the sake of the OP's original intention for this thread. For me, it can be summed up as "put up or shut up", which is an ideal seemingly lost (as with many others) in todays world. My apologies to the OP, for the continued hijacking of this thread.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 12, 2011 14:28:28 GMT
Sean: Fair enough. I follow your logic but I don't necessarily agree with you. I personally wouldn't ask a smith more than what he might charge for a sword similar to one that he's already done if I'm price-checking. If I don't do that, then I have no idea how much I need to save up as Brenno doesn't post the prices for his swords on his website, and neither does John Lundemo. Tinker does, but not for custom orders.
Point is, to find out what kind of money you're talking about, you have to ask. One doesn't always know who got x sword that you'd like something similar to, and if you want something completely different from any other swords, then you have nothing to go by. Do you really want to save up $1200+ and have no idea whether that'll be enough to start with, or what if you find out you didn't have to wait so long before even broaching the subject?
Communication between a manufacturer and the public is vital. There's a reason why they list their contact information on their websites. John even listed his telephone number here! To some degree, they WANT people to contact them. Sure, probably they won't get a sale through with most people that contact them, but if nobody contacts them they won't have business to start with!
Now is it better form to contact someone when you're *able* to do business with them, rather then when you aren't? Perhaps... but what if you decide not to buy from them and to take your business to someone else? Isn't that just as much wasting their time as if you didn't have the money for it in the first place?
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Post by GUEST on Apr 12, 2011 17:30:05 GMT
The thing is we're talking about people who will not be buying a sword they just like coming up with designs and get quotes from makers. It's different if you have a job and can come up with the money in a year or less. If you don't have a job and no way of coming up with the money you should not being bugging a custom maker several times with designs.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 12, 2011 17:57:01 GMT
That's a fair enough point and I do agree that we shouldn't 'bug' sword makers, nor should we just be throwing designs at them and asking if they'd do it or how much they would charge when we currently have no intention or capability of purchasing it anytime soon. That isn't what I'm supporting by any measure. All I am saying is that, if you have a general idea of what you like, I believe it's okay to ask briefly for a price range and perhaps explore an option or two.
Even with a job, sometimes it can take quite a while to save up that kind of money. I know personally it would take me probably close to a year and a half to save up enough for an Albion Munich, which is basically my dream production sword. I know this because Albion lists their prices, but custom makers often don't. So, for people to find out the price, they HAVE to ask. For my part, I would like to know what my goal is for saving money.
So, maybe I write John Lundemo and ask him how much a sword is, because I want to know how long it may be before I can afford that sword. He quotes me $2,000. What do I do? Do I ask "okay what about x, would that be cheaper, or can you do y"? No. I'm going to thank him and tell him that if I raise that kind of money I'll get back to him, and leave it at that. Is that unreasonable?
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Post by GUEST on Apr 12, 2011 18:07:46 GMT
No that is not unreasonable, you are going to buy inless something comes up. If you've ever sold a high end car you will get tired of people who can not afford it just wanting to take test drives. If I was a customer maker I know I would get tired of someone sending me designs all the time asking how much would this cost.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 12, 2011 18:20:03 GMT
Exactly, and I'm agreeing that that kind of behavior isn't appropriate.
The only thing I am maintaining is that it's okay to make brief inquiries to see what kind of price you have to prepare for. If you decide not to purchase a sword after all, well, all that's been wasted is a few minutes of the craftsman's time. On the other hand, sending a lot of designs and bothering them about it, is much more time wasted for them. It's a lesser evil vs greater evil kind of situation.
Ideally, of course one should only contact a maker if they have the money for it, but let's be honest, everybody has wanted a sword on occasion that they couldn't afford right then. From my personal experience, most craftsmen are okay with answering a few questions-- it's all in the nature of business, not everybody that talks to you is going to buy your goods. But, if you are going to take up more of their time, then you should make it worth their time by being serious about purchasing something from them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 19:01:34 GMT
For what it's worth, I am very much serious about buying my Süt, it'll just take a while. The sword means a lot to me, so as soon as I'm able, I will be buying it. As Elheru said though, I need to find out how much it'd cost, or if it'd even be possible. I have no interest in half a dozen other 'maybe' swords, and as soon as I find out anything to go off of for this one, I'll politely shut my mouth. Mostly because I won't have anything else to say until I can afford my custom piece.
Speaking of such courtesies though, apologies to OP for setting his thread spiraling out of control e___e
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 12, 2011 19:41:25 GMT
Too bad you missed out on the Munich I sold a little while back, at basically half the cost of a new one... it is an amazing sword. I regretted selling it the moment after I did so... and if I could, I would undo that moment and still have it. As to your points... no, not unreasonable at all. If you are asking in good faith knowing you intend to purchass and know you will have the means to do so. However... constantly bugging makers for this design or that design when you know you have no money, and will not have any money any time soon, and thus NO chance of buying said item for the foreseeable future... that is just disrespectful to the makers time and selfish. ...and it happens. A lot. Trust me.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Apr 12, 2011 19:51:57 GMT
I think we understand each other a little better now.
I'm sure the whole bugging thing happens a lot. I draw a lot of swords (don't know if you've seen my thread), and I'd love to have each one done up in live steel for me to play with, but it's just not particularly feasible for the reason that pretty much all of them would have to be made from scratch.
Right now I'm saving up for a Huawei in shirasaya... $200ish is a lot cheaper than your Munich, which gives an idea of the price range I'm working with right now. I really hope Albion doesn't go out of business or raise their prices much in the next few years, man, but $2,000 for that Munich Gothic... yikes.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Apr 13, 2011 1:39:00 GMT
its my opinion that asking for a quote is perfectly acceptable as long as your in good faith knowing you will be making a purchase. i have currently asked for 2 quotes on swords and in the emails told the maker it would be up to a year before i contacted them again about it. But i do 100% plan on having both these swords amde once ive saved up the $$$ but there are people who go overboard and send 3 or 4 or 5 designs waning quotes when they know theyl never buy it. Id like to hear some of our custom makers opinions on the matter
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Apr 13, 2011 3:53:43 GMT
for me, i waited till i had a minimum of 1500.00 usd dedicated for my piece before contacting ANYONE. This gave me the ability to show good faith and to lock in my slot. I've researched enough to know that put me in the ballpark for the finished commission. I personally believe that if I'm going to take up any of a smith's time, I should be ready to at least give a deposit or i won't bother. If a person claims to be serious enough to ask for pricing, then commitment to a deposit should really be in order. Save first, ask later cause if you don't know the difference between a 500.00 or 2000.00 sword, i'd suggest collecting stamps. As for Fable Blades, prices for available pieces ARE posted, and i've seen many posts from Brenno himself directing people to his website for prices in the past. I was able to ascertain within 200.00 what my piece was going to cost by simply looking at his site. If a person was looking to have a "repeat" piece made, i would agree that an email for pricing would be fine, but a one off piece can in no way be mutually understood for pricing without "too much" of the smiths time, thought and effort to not be willing to pay.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Apr 13, 2011 10:38:41 GMT
I saw that Munich Sean , is just a shame I was'nt faster on the pm was a great price, I eventually got an Alpha Omega basically the same sword with different guard and pommel.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 13, 2011 17:28:34 GMT
You do have awesome and expensive taste... Yeh, I've seen the Alpha/Omega sword on Albion's site... very impressive.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Apr 13, 2011 19:01:09 GMT
WOW @ the alpha omega, the only thing i didnt like about it is i have a peev, i cant stand a "bent" guard, where its flared out to the sides. dunno why, although that particular sword...pulls it off. a fine piece of craftsmanship there, and a price tag to match
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Post by 14thforsaken on Apr 13, 2011 19:20:29 GMT
Basically, I don't ask a smith for a quote on something unless either I'm pretty sure I am going to have them make it for me or if I am trying to see if something is feasible to make. If I know that I won't be able to commission it for a few months, I tell them that up front and let them know take your time and get back to me when you can. I really don't see the harm in that especially if your asking if something can be made and not asking for detailed sketches and such. If they were to do some sketches or spend more than a couple of minutes on it, I would end up paying them something for their time, not a lot but some to show that I appreciate the value of their time.
Also, I think that there is a little more leeway if you are dealing with someone that you have worked with before. At that point you are already a customer and it is good business practice for the maker to take a few minutes and answer your question as there is a pretty good likelihood that they will get your repeat business.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Apr 13, 2011 20:09:09 GMT
d never bother a custom maker to do designs or drawings unless i was 90% ready to have it done (funds saved up) however i do on occasion draw up the designs myself and inquire as to the feasibility and "ball park price range" which they have always been happy to do, its as simple as looking at it and sending a reply as to price. but anything that requires the smith/customizer to actually DO anything, i wont bother them with that until im ready.i recently drew up a design and asked brenno for a ball park quote as i had no idea what the price range would be, and i also let him know it could be up to a year before i was ready depending on price, he said to shoot for the 2K mark so now i wont bother him any further about it until i reach the 2K mark in my bank account. its that simple.
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Post by Deepbluedave on Apr 15, 2011 23:00:19 GMT
14th I can see by your new Sig that you are now the proud owner of a fantastic Sabre. I must say Brendan did a great job is brilliant, you have Great Taste.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 15, 2011 23:16:43 GMT
I second that. I saw it up on his site by chance a few days ago and was wondering who the lucky owner of that was.
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