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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:50:41 GMT
If you've been meaning this entire time that you would pay MSRP for something, just not one that you think is too high, I'm going to punch myself in the balls until I die. Oh, that's horrible! It hurts just thinkin' about it...
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 5:57:39 GMT
If you've been meaning this entire time that you would pay MSRP for something, just not one that you think is too high, I'm going to punch myself in the balls until I die. Well what I am trying to say is that, in general, most of us would choose to pay the lowest price holding all else equal (customer service, etc, etc). In cases where you would want to purchase a sword made by Christian Fletcher (CF), you have to pay the Christian Fletcher's price. Theoretically, if I could purchase the same Christian Fletcher's (CF) sword elsewhere (say a second hand sword market), I might do so (but in practice, it is very rare to get a pristine CF's sword from second hand sword market at much lower price). In short, if someone wants a CF sword, they have to pay the CF's price (MSRP price for CF sword is the market price) On the other hand, Hanwei's MSRP for a PPK is $400, but I could get it cheaper (say SBG sword store) for $250 shipped. If $250 is the lowest price for a Hanwei PPK in the market, then that is the market price as most people would pay only $250 for it. (MSRP of $400 is not the market price for Hanwei PPK which is $250). So which is the "right" price? Should consumer pay MRSP or market price? Unfortunately economics cannot possibly tell us which price is "right" or "wrong". Economics only predicts what a consumer is most expected to do, that is paying the least for the same good. Is the market price ethically "right" or "not". Well "personally" in some cases it is, in some cases it is not. All this talk of economics is pretty tiring, no? Edit: Don't punch your balls lol, it hurts so much it's not even funny
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 6:06:05 GMT
But what if you were to use your swords to train in some sort of martial art? Would they cease to be a luxury item and become tools? Would it have any effect whatsoever if they did?
Getting back to the question that everyone has tap danced around like we're in some god forsaken Gene Kelley movie.
If you had a Brick & Mortar sword store near you that had superb customer service and allowed you to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before you commit to buying them, would you forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead?
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 6:13:33 GMT
It really depends on how large the increase in price tag. If the increase is quite small (say about 15 percent for a $300 sword), I am willing to do so.
First you don't have to pay for shipping cost. Shipping takes like a week in US (or months if its from other countries).
Second, you have to opportunity to choose the sword from their inventory (some sword might be shipped with certain defects which sucks because I have to return it).
Third, since you could handle the sword, you would not regret buying it in the first place. Most of use who don't live near a sword-store have no luxury to try out a sword before purchasing it, we have rely on sword reviews and good instinct. If we get a sword that is not up to our expectation, we have to sell it in second hand market.
There are extra benefit to having a brick and mortar swordstore near where we live, most of us, at least for me, are happy to pay a little more for additional "non-monetary" benefit.
Edit: Personally, I buy my shoes at a mortar and brick store even though I could get it cheaper online. However suppose the nearest shoe store is hundreds of miles away from where I live, then I might consider buying online.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 8:02:33 GMT
So you get the point that I'm trying to make. Well done. I don't think the other guy does.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 8:07:43 GMT
Getting back to the question that everyone has tap danced around like we're in some god forsaken Gene Kelley movie. - Theowl
God does not forsake Gene Kelley movies. If you continue to assert such nonsense, I may Tapdance on YOU. At work. At our brick&mortar sword store. On Friday.
Anyhow, what my enthusiastic co-workers; theowl and *sigh* <shakes head as if watching the antics of an angry child with Downs Syndrome brutalizing a bag of charcoal briquettes, and sullying the carpet, furniture, and slow moving pets in his rage > acidexfoliate are concerned with is the fact that there ARE in fact internet based sword sellers out there who have a wholesalers/ distributors license, wherein they are licensed to sell to retailers, at wholesale prices, yet are in fact abusing said license and selling (via the internet, or out of their garage) directly to the public, at not much more than wholesale price (which is still significantly more than THEY paid for it, as they are supposed to be wholesalers). In some cases they are not even in possession of a retail license; however, some of them do hold a retailer's license, by virtue of the "showroom" they claim to sell out of, which is in fact a facade in part of their warehouse that no customer has ever actually seen.
(not in any way inferring that KOA is one of these- as far as I know they are legit, though even they were recently told by Del Tin to raise their prices to acceptable levels)
We know about these shady sword-selling practices because we have spoken to wholesalers who do just this kind of business. At the opposite end of the spectrum from them (both in terms of price and ethics) are stores like ours, which IS located in a mall, does have an experienced and knowledgeable staff of employees they have to pay, and does sell at MSRP. Now, Like a car dealership, there may sometimes be room to negotiate, but we are not going to sell all of our products at 10-15% over wholesale, because we are a retail store, and not only is that ethically questionable based by virtue of our retail license, but also we would rapidly close our doors if we only made 10 to 15% profit on our products, all the time.
And if that happened there would not be anywhere in Southern California you can walk into and play with a Kreigschwert, a Practical Plus Katana, or an OOP Arbedo or Towton, or talk to the employees about just how durable the edge of an I beam trainer is (its pretty darn durable), while holding an I-beam and testing its weight and balance.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 8:50:51 GMT
The abuse of dealer vs wholesale price is a whole other discussion. My question, once again, was: If you had a Brick & Mortar sword store near you that had superb customer service and allowed you to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before you commit to buying them, would you forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead? But I'll forgive you trying to derail the thread since apparently you're the enlightened one..
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Dec 22, 2009 9:06:45 GMT
when I lived in ohio there was this awsome little store calld "victory martial arts and asian gifts" and they knew me by name gave them a few thousand dallars of the course over several years ....... I hate online shoping I won't put my credit card in the computer if I can't call and place an order then they really don't want my money ....... if there was a store near my that sold kmore than stainless crap I'd be there ever weekend
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 22, 2009 9:07:23 GMT
If I had a Brick & Mortar sword store near me that had superb customer service and allowed me to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before I commit to buying them, I WOULD forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead?
I, however, do not have such a happy place. not only would I support them I would help promote them. I wold try to arrange cutting demonstrations and sparring events and any other such things I could think of to help out. this is all a moot point.
if there are internet stores who are breaking the law then they should be shut down, or forced to comply with the law. I do not know the law in this regards so I will not speculate as to whom may or may not be in violation.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 22, 2009 14:21:03 GMT
if there are Internet stores who are breaking the law then they should be shut down, or forced to comply with the law. I do not know the law in this regards so I will not speculate as to whom may or may not be in violation. What Jaberwok is talking about does happen... its not breaking the law in most cases, but it is violating the dealer agrement with the source company from which they are receiving their stock at wholesale, and is cause for revoking their wholesale buying privileges. It is the source companies responsibility to crack down on that sort of abuse. If they see it happening, put a stop to it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 14:33:06 GMT
If Hanwei or anyone else has problems with prices KoA or anyone else is having for their products, they should just say what Del Tin said: Raise the prices to a level that we find acceptable! End of problem. If they are quiet, they obviously don't have a problem with that...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 14:48:54 GMT
It is the manufacturer's job to police their distributers, not the customers. I have no idea what their agreements are and can't comment on them, I can only go by the prices I see.
Now if I had a local store which let me see their stock and was knowledge I might pay a little more (10-20%). However that's a big if, there are none near me and the merchants I deal with at Ren Faires often know far less than I do and don't want to let you open the box to inspect the item before buying. You can look at a floor model but not the actual one you are buying so you can end up with a lemon sometimes.
At some of the prices I've seen Brick and Mortar stores or better Ren Faire dealers like Angel Swords list, I can have a blade custom made for that amount. In that case, I'm probably going to go with the custom and get exactly what I want. Not that I have anything against local stores, I just am not going to pay double the price for an item or pay the same price for a factory sword that I can get custom work done for.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 14:50:47 GMT
The abuse of dealer vs wholesale price is a whole other discussion. My question, once again, was: If you had a Brick & Mortar sword store near you that had superb customer service and allowed you to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before you commit to buying them, would you forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead? But I'll forgive you trying to derail the thread since apparently you're the enlightened one.. To answer your original question- YES I would add to the above- At least one employee who practices WMA, or who is the backyard cutting king, and could render an informed opinion on the blades handling characteristics. ArmsofValor comes to mind off the top of my head.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 15:50:36 GMT
I think I answered the real question several pages ago. I don't think any of us would mind paying reasonably more money from a local store rather than on the internet. Other people derailed the topic onto unfair business practices and the consumer's obligation to fix them. Maybe the person that brought that up should start a separate thread so the real question here gets it's due respect. The problem I see with a local store has little or nothing to do with unfair business practices on the internet. I would say with some confidence that there would not be enough local interest to support a store (assuming that store only sold swords and related goods). and as i stated RIGHT OFF THE BAT, until you can MAKE that sword with your two gotdam hands, you dont have CLUE ONE about what it's "worth" besides what the MAKER. TELLS. YOU. Now this is a truly ignorant statement and has done nothing but hurt any logical point you may have made. If I thought you were nothing but a troublemaker I might ignore this and hope you went away. But I think you are just passionate, if uninformed, about the topic so I will address this. The maker does not determine the value of anything. At least not the successful ones. The MARKET determines the value of anything. Very basic market model. The market consists of many things and conditions but for our sake we'll keep it simple. The maker, the buyer and the competetion all make up part of the market. The maker makes the product, or offers a service. He then has to decide on a price to ask for that product. Whatever method he uses to pick this price is up to him, but whatever, he picks a price and puts the product up for sale. If the buyer decides his price is too high they will not buy it (barring, of course, necessities like food, heat, gas, etc). Even if that product is unique (like Christian Fletcher) if the price is too high according to the buyer it will not sell. (for an extreme example:Hanwei decides that $400 sword is worth $800. Very few, if any, people are going to pay that $800.) The maker at this point has choices: Continue to sell at this price and go broke for lack of sales. or Lower the price. For our example let's assume he lowers the price. Except he gets carried away and goes a lot lower. Without complicating our model too much let's assume he somehow can keep up with the huge increase in demand for the product at this much reduced price. What happens? Turns out he went too low and he is losing money on each sale. Now what? He raises the price. Demand will drop. Hopefully not a lot. At some point a balance between price, cost, and demand will hopefully be found and everyone will be content. Now you can add to this mix competetion. If someone else is making a similar product the two makers will need to overcome each other as well as consumer demand. If the other guy is selling his product for less money than our maker and buyers rather pay his price, our maker will have to lower his price. All this is a very simplified example, but fairly accurate. At no point does the maker decide a product's value. He tries to sell it at as high price as people are willing to pay. If he can't sell it at a high enough price to cover his expenses he will go out of business.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 22, 2009 16:18:46 GMT
I make things for a living. I decide what my time and effort are worth to me and price things accordingly. Then the market decides what it's worth to the market. If the market is willing to pay what I think my time and effort are worth, I make a sale. If the market decides my time and effort are worth less than I think, I don't make a sale or I can choose to re-asses the values I set. In short, I offer something to the market, the market decides it's value not me.
Let's say a fellow offers to sell my wares to a larger market than I could normally reach. He would sell them at a profit and he would pay me wholesale. If I sell to him at wholesale and he sells to a consumer for less than I would charge for retail, has the consumer done something wrong? Of course not. If I specify that the reseller must sell at a price I approve of if he's going to buy from me at wholesale, but then he sells to a consumer for just a little over wholesale, is that the consumers fault. No, it's not up to the consumer to police my business practices, it's up to me.
Brick and mortar sword stores are great, just as a brick and mortar yo-yo store would be great to a yo-yo enthusiast. That, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to have a brick and mortar yo-yo store. It's a niche market and though many people will drive from hours away to handle and compare yo-yos and talk with a knowledgeable staff about yo-yo related topics, most will buy on the internet, often after reading reviews from various other yo-yo enthusiasts and talking to the knowledgeable on-line yo-yo reps.
It's possible that I misread the post from TheJabberwock, but it sounds like he, theowl, and acidexfoliate all work at the same sword store. If your business is declining because of the economy or because of internet sword sellers, then that is certainly too bad.
I'm not sure an on-line reseller of other peoples work has any less right to make money than a brick and mortar reseller of other peoples work. It's not up to the consumer to to keep anyone in business over any one else. It's not up to the consumer to police makers business practices. What was once local has become global. With a few clicks of the mouse and a bit of taping on the keyboard we can talk to dozens of people who already own a particular sword we are interested in buying. People who are knowledgeable in this area or that about swords. Literally hundreds of people to discuss a purchase with. Some might even live near enough that we could meet with them and handle their swords. An added bonus is that they have no motivation to sell us on anything other than their own enthusiasm for a sword they own or have handled. No need to worry that they might be steering us toward something they have in stock though we might prefer something else. No need to worry that they might be trying to steer us toward a more expensive purchase. Times change, business models change or go by the way side.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 22, 2009 16:53:45 GMT
I make things for a living. I decide what my time and effort are worth to me and price things accordingly. Then the market decides what it's worth to the market. If the market is willing to pay what I think my time and effort are worth, I make a sale. If the market decides my time and effort are worth less than I think, I don't make a sale or I can choose to re-asses the values I set. In short, I offer something to the market, the market decides it's value not me. Let's say a fellow offers to sell my wares to a larger market than I could normally reach. He would sell them at a profit and he would pay me wholesale. If I sell to him at wholesale and he sells to a consumer for less than I would charge for retail, has the consumer done something wrong? Of course not. If I specify that the reseller must sell at a price I approve of if he's going to buy from me at wholesale, but then he sells to a consumer for just a little over wholesale, is that the consumers fault. No, it's not up to the consumer to police my business practices, it's up to me. Brick and mortar sword stores are great, just as a brick and mortar yo-yo store would be great to a yo-yo enthusiast. That, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to have a brick and mortar yo-yo store. It's a niche market and though many people will drive from hours away to handle and compare yo-yos and talk with a knowledgeable staff about yo-yo related topics, most will buy on the internet, often after reading reviews from various other yo-yo enthusiasts and talking to the knowledgeable on-line yo-yo reps. It's possible that I misread the post from TheJabberwock, but it sounds like he, theowl, and acidexfoliate all work at the same sword store. If your business is declining because of the economy or because of internet sword sellers, then that is certainly too bad. I'm not sure an on-line reseller of other peoples work has any less right to make money than a brick and mortar reseller of other peoples work. It's not up to the consumer to to keep anyone in business over any one else. It's not up to the consumer to police makers business practices. What was once local has become global. With a few clicks of the mouse and a bit of taping on the keyboard we can talk to dozens of people who already own a particular sword we are interested in buying. People who are knowledgeable in this area or that about swords. Literally hundreds of people to discuss a purchase with. Some might even live near enough that we could meet with them and handle their swords. An added bonus is that they have no motivation to sell us on anything other than their own enthusiasm for a sword they own or have handled. No need to worry that they might be steering us toward something they have in stock though we might prefer something else. No need to worry that they might be trying to steer us toward a more expensive purchase. Times change, business models change or go by the way side. Very well said BB... +1 from me. I would add that I would still be willing to pay a little more if I did have a local store which stocked swords I liked and was satffed by decent, honest, knowledgeable sword enthusiests like myself. I would be willing to pay a bit more to keep such people around... but thats me. I don't expect others to think that way and I don't think less of them if they do not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 18:49:55 GMT
If I had a Brick & Mortar sword store near me that had superb customer service and allowed me to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before I commit to buying them, I WOULD forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead? I, however, do not have such a happy place. not only would I support them I would help promote them. I wold try to arrange cutting demonstrations and sparring events and any other such things I could think of to help out. this is all a moot point. if there are internet stores who are breaking the law then they should be shut down, or forced to comply with the law. I do not know the law in this regards so I will not speculate as to whom may or may not be in violation. This, except I would also submit job applications there on a daily basis.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 20:08:46 GMT
We can't really get into people betraying dealer agreements and the issue of selling for pennies above cost without making a lot of assumptions, so I wasn't going to get too far into it.
We do work at the same store, but fortunately our business is not declining any more than anyone else in this economy. We have the friends that we have made in the SCA/Adrian empire, the WMA groups that use us as their chief supplier, and the several military bases in the area to thank for that. What the concern is the fact that other knife/sword shops in the country seem to be vanishing. A lot of these companies have been around for a very long time, so you can see why it would give us pause even with our loyal following.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 22, 2009 20:42:52 GMT
We can't really get into people betraying dealer agreements and the issue of selling for pennies above cost without making a lot of assumptions, so I wasn't going to get too far into it. We do work at the same store, but fortunately our business is not declining any more than anyone else in this economy. We have the friends that we have made in the SCA/Adrian empire, the WMA groups that use us as their chief supplier, and the several military bases in the area to thank for that. What the concern is the fact that other knife/sword shops in the country seem to be vanishing. A lot of these companies have been around for a very long time, so you can see why it would give us pause even with our loyal following. Indeed I can... the advent of the Internet age makes it difficult for any Brick and Mortar seller of any sort of niche item. Internet sellers can have the whole world as their customers, while a local shoppe has only its region to rely on for sales. Internet companies have much less overhead then Brick and Mortar stores... so their costs are less making it easy for them to undersell a more traditional store... even without considering abuse of wholesale agreements. In the Internet age, its got to be HARD to run a sword shoppe. However, the Internet may be hurting local sword shoppe retailers, it has HELPED the sword industry as a whole... because it has made swords more available to everyone, which has increased the interest in such items and the passion of those interested... and thus the quality of swords in the market now are much better. Compare whats available NOW in swords to what was offered just 2 years ago... or even one year ago! You can't deny that we have many more options, and the options are BETTER then they used to be. Whats been good for the industry and the consumers as a whole has not been as kind to the small sword shoppes. Add to that our current economic issues and that only makes it worse. I fully understand that, and feel bad about it... ...what I do not agree with is some of the apparent venom being thrown at SBG members in their desire to get good swords at a good price. 99% of us do NOT even HAVE the option of a local sword shoppe, only the Internet. So of course we will find the best price and service we can when buying on the internet... and that does not make us bad people, bad collector/hobbyists, or bad anything. It makes us SMART. I bet that most of us are like me, and would pay a bit more if there was a sword shoppe in our town... however... for most of us there is NOT... and in most of our towns there would not be enough interest and sales to support one either. So, we use the only market we have... the Internet market. We would be DOLTS if we payed more then we had to for what we buy online... and I resent the implication that we are stupid or careless in being smart consumers. I'm glad you guys have a sword store, and even more glad that you have the chance to work there... that would be AWESOME for so many of us. However, please try to understand we do NOT have that and it is likely NOT an option for us... and do not take out the misfortunes of the market on us, its not our fault, no matter how you might make it out to be.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 20:49:19 GMT
southern California, where we are located has lost 5 locations of "The Edge", 30 locations of "Merlos Cutlery", Portland lost the nations oldest cutlery store : "Portland Cutlery", Arizona just lost 5 locations of "The Cutlery Shoppe". i feel my heart drop whenever a fellow cutlery store goes under, since i really do feel that internet sales are a bubble market about to burst.
a follow up question : while many of you seem to agree that a knowledgeable staff and the chance to examine the wares would be worth an additional cost, would that then justify the MSRP of the sword in most cases?
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