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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 21:35:53 GMT
Some cases yes, but cases like Cold Steel where MSRP is double the price of most retailers, definitely not.
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Post by sparky on Dec 22, 2009 21:49:17 GMT
a follow up question : while many of you seem to agree that a knowledgeable staff and the chance to examine the wares would be worth an additional cost, would that then justify the MSRP of the sword in most cases? Having sold office supplies back in the late 70's and early 80's...... no. MSRP on some items was 95% higher than we paid for the stuff. If I remember correctly the smallest percentage was 40% less than MSRP. Would I be willing to pay more yes, but within reason. And the service would need to be good because that is what I'd be paying for. Heck I don't shop at Wal Mart because the service sucks, so I spend more money at a place that appreciates my business. But that's just me. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 21:52:48 GMT
I fully understand that, and feel bad about it... ...what I do not agree with is some of the apparent venom being thrown at SBG members in their desire to get good swords at a good price. 99% of us do NOT even HAVE the option of a local sword shoppe, only the Internet. So of course we will find the best price and service we can when buying on the internet... and that does not make us bad people, bad collector/hobbyists, or bad anything. It makes us SMART. I bet that most of us are like me, and would pay a bit more if there was a sword shoppe in our town... however... for most of us there is NOT... and in most of our towns there would not be enough interest and sales to support one either. So, we use the only market we have... the Internet market. We would be DOLTS if we payed more then we had to for what we buy online... and I resent the implication that we are stupid or careless in being smart consumers. I'm glad you guys have a sword store, and even more glad that you have the chance to work there... that would be AWESOME for so many of us. However, please try to understand we do NOT have that and it is likely NOT an option for us... and do not take out the misfortunes of the market on us, its not our fault, no matter how you might make it out to be. to be equitable : TheOwl and TheJabberwock weren't spewing anything. just me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 21:57:30 GMT
Having sold office supplies back in the late 70's and early 80's...... no. MSRP on some items was 95% higher than we paid for the stuff. If I remember correctly the smallest percentage was 40% less than MSRP. Would I be willing to pay more yes, but within reason. And the service would need to be good because that is what I'd be paying for. Heck I don't shop at Wal Mart because the service sucks, so I spend more money at a place that appreciates my business. But that's just me. ;D so your standing is that as a customer you should pay the same thing that a licensed retailer does, or very close to it? you want wholesale cost, that's correct?
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Post by sparky on Dec 22, 2009 22:04:06 GMT
Having sold office supplies back in the late 70's and early 80's...... no. MSRP on some items was 95% higher than we paid for the stuff. If I remember correctly the smallest percentage was 40% less than MSRP. Would I be willing to pay more yes, but within reason. And the service would need to be good because that is what I'd be paying for. Heck I don't shop at Wal Mart because the service sucks, so I spend more money at a place that appreciates my business. But that's just me. ;D so your standing is that as a customer you should pay the same thing that a licensed retailer does, or very close to it? you want wholesale cost, that's correct? No not at all, just a reasonable mark up. I would go out of my way to support good service for a reasonable mark up. I know it is a different world today than it was when I was in retail, but my bosses loved soaking the consumer. not saying anyone is now but.... Our prices from our suppliers allowed us a good profit or a sick profit. The company I worked for is no longer in business because of places like Staples and Office Max. They sold at a reasonable mark up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 23:20:48 GMT
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on why you think that internet sales are a "bubble about to burst". Barring some Government involvement, E commerce will do nothing but expand in inverse proportion to our populaces growing lassitude IMO.
As far as MSRP being justified, well I don't really believe that any one ever pays MSRP for anything, except when they release a new Iphone, or the christmas toy sensation of the year.
I am willing to pay for what I want, and value added services from a retailer are what would convince me to frequent your establishment. Business being business, I expect to pay more than wholesale or supplier prices, unfortunately in the current ME ME ME environment that pervades society, many feel that they shouldn't have to. That is where the problem lies, and why E commerce will continue to expand.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 0:41:02 GMT
Seriously, I haven't left the house in months.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 23, 2009 5:06:39 GMT
a follow up question : while many of you seem to agree that a knowledgeable staff and the chance to examine the wares would be worth an additional cost, would that then justify the MSRP of the sword in most cases? That varies from item to item and price to price. If I feel an items MSRP is fair, I'll pay it... if not I won't, unless I NEED it... and I don't NEED any swords, I want them... so... See, I worked in the auto industry for 7 years... its ALL about the haggle and bargain in that world. In older times, EVERYTHING was a Haggle/Bargin... either a straight out barter system or if sold for cash most prices were negotiable. In middle eastern countries the haggle is expected... they always start with a higher price and, if you are a fool not to bargain and pay full price, they laugh their asses off at you as you leave and the count your coins. I actually enjoy the process of the bargin... call it part of the inner salesman in me, but I do. I love going to RenFares and bargaining with the vendors there... I HATE just picking something up and paying the asking price for it. I have even been known to bargain in retail stores when I can... I just enjoy the exchange. So when would I pay MSRP? When I feel its fair or when I have to... as rarely as possible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 6:20:52 GMT
The abuse of dealer vs wholesale price is a whole other discussion. My question, once again, was: If you had a Brick & Mortar sword store near you that had superb customer service and allowed you to actually handle swords to feel their weight and balance etcetera before you commit to buying them, would you forgive a slightly higher price tag because of their larger overhead? But I'll forgive you trying to derail the thread since apparently you're the enlightened one.. Thats it; im wearing my tapshoes to work on Friday. ARE YOU READY TO SHUFFLE!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 9:04:49 GMT
You realize that we're closed on Friday, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 9:07:51 GMT
a follow up question : while many of you seem to agree that a knowledgeable staff and the chance to examine the wares would be worth an additional cost, would that then justify the MSRP of the sword in most cases? I actually enjoy the process of the bargin... call it part of the inner salesman in me, but I do. I love going to RenFares and bargaining with the vendors there... I HATE just picking something up and paying the asking price for it. I have even been known to bargain in retail stores when I can... I just enjoy the exchange. We're always happy to wheel and deal with people, and really our customers rarely pay the price on the tag, but if they found the price to be reasonable to them and had no problem paying for it, I wouldn't refer to them as "suckers".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 9:21:25 GMT
Considering the mark up in Australia that already exists even on the net is ridiculous, I can only imagine how much more ridiculous a brick and mortar store would be, considering the one martial arts store around here tries to sell their product through misinformation and ridiculously inflated prices, bugger that for a game of soldiers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 18:11:07 GMT
I'll pay MSRP as it pertains to clothes and incidentals- they don't cost so much that I'm watching every penny on the purchase, but when it comes to cars and swords? I don't pay MSRP.
I'm not sure I follow the train of thought that I'm a bad person because I won't pay posted-cost; I have always been of the mind that it made me a smarter consumer. I can understand shop owners being concerned about the current state of the marketplace, but I do take offense to rude and offensive browbeating- and since none of you have anything to do with the person who earns my money (me, for those of you challenged enough to think otherwise) I think it pompous of you to try to dictate how it should be spent, or with whom, or for how much.
I liked the car company analogies- if they go under, it is because they weren't strong enough to survive; it sucks, but it happens. What would you have us do? We get taxed before we get our money, we get taxed on everything we buy- why wouldn't we be looking for a deal? I don't know about you, but I have a kid in college and one in high school, both girls, and they always seem to need something so my dollar NEEDS to go further.
As much as I love swords, it IS a hobby and as such, it gets backburnered for other, more important things so yea, I look for a deal. Would I shop at a B&M store if the staff were COURTEOUS and knowledgeable (seems too many no longer practice the former, if acidexhole is any indication)? I sure would; but I wouldn't buy all my swords there- simply because they don't or can't carry customs, which is a market I'm finding myself wanting to step into more and more...in fact, I'm getting ready to take the plunge now.
Would you counsel me to opt instead for a production sword so I could buy it in a brick and mortar? Quickly followed by me telling you where to stick that counsel? Because if you would, I most certainly would.
And with that, I'm done.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 18:40:00 GMT
Ebon, I think you summed it up perfectly for me. I too don't appreciate being told how I should spend my money and castigated if I do not spend it the way someone else thinks I should. My money is just that, MY MONEY and I'll spend it as I see fit.
While I can see where Brick and Mortar store owners may be alarmed by the internet competition and the economy in general, I don't see how comming onto a site like this one and blasting the members for not paying MSRP is going to help them.....if anything I would think it would cost them business. I know I'm not going to shop at a store where the employees tried to call me out on a forum board.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 23, 2009 18:48:11 GMT
I think our new members are just REALLY passionate and supportive of their store... and I know if I was the owner/manager of that store, I'd be happy to have such fervent support from my employees. I can forgive some of what I perceived as somewhat belligerent behavior as intense loyalty.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 19:02:21 GMT
I found most of what they said to be amusingly ignorant, but not necessarily mean spirited. I didn't take affront. Really, who takes what a stranger on the internet says seriously? People who look for cheaper prices caused the recession? Comedy GOLD I tell ya!
In other (internet) words: I lol'd.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Dec 23, 2009 19:53:12 GMT
There are some really good questions here, mixed in among all the heat and light.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were local sword shops, with knowledgeable enthusiasts working the counter, and a good, deep stock of swords to get some hands-on experience with before purchasing? A place nearby you could go to and handle arming swords from VA, old VA, Hanwei, Gen2, DSA, maybe an Albion? Sure.
At the same time, if you can get "x" for $250, how much extra are you willing to pay for a hand-on choice between x, y and z? $300? $350? $600? Where do you draw the line? Is KOA the devil? Is KOA a veritable boon? What's a Windlass sword, a good Windlass sword, worth?
Dangerous questions to ask!
Here's an example from my own cheap history. A month or so ago, I decided I wanted a complex/compound hilted sword, and started asking questions on SBG. Trueswordsman, from AOV, helped guide my selection process. He answered my questions, he gave his thoughts. In the event, I ended up ordering a Hanwei Side Sword from him. I paid the price listed on the website---even though it was cheaper at KOA. The price difference wasn't that much---a bottle of decent whisky. I paid that price difference without haggling, because he'd helped me and worked with me. That assistance was worth the price differential.
But that price differential was the price of a bottle of decent whisky. If it had been more---1.25x? 2x? 3x?---I don't know what I would have done. Important questions, I think, but we could do with more rational discussion and less choosing sides. Hey, we're all sword enthusiasts, right?
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 23, 2009 20:16:55 GMT
Well said sir. In your position, I too would have paid a bit more withut question for the help given... but how much more, and how much is too much... that likely is different for everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 21:20:29 GMT
I've purchased from Swordnations and MuseumReplicas deal of the day, and KOAs scratch and dent section, so I guess that I contributed to the economic meltdown.
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Post by sparky on Dec 24, 2009 4:38:21 GMT
There are some really good questions here, mixed in among all the heat and light. Wouldn't it be nice if there were local sword shops, with knowledgeable enthusiasts working the counter, and a good, deep stock of swords to get some hands-on experience with before purchasing? A place nearby you could go to and handle arming swords from VA, old VA, Hanwei, Gen2, DSA, maybe an Albion? Sure. At the same time, if you can get "x" for $250, how much extra are you willing to pay for a hand-on choice between x, y and z? $300? $350? $600? Where do you draw the line? Is KOA the devil? Is KOA a veritable boon? What's a Windlass sword, a good Windlass sword, worth? Dangerous questions to ask! Here's an example from my own cheap history. A month or so ago, I decided I wanted a complex/compound hilted sword, and started asking questions on SBG. Trueswordsman, from AOV, helped guide my selection process. He answered my questions, he gave his thoughts. In the event, I ended up ordering a Hanwei Side Sword from him. I paid the price listed on the website---even though it was cheaper at KOA. The price difference wasn't that much---a bottle of decent whisky. I paid that price difference without haggling, because he'd helped me and worked with me. That assistance was worth the price differential. But that price differential was the price of a bottle of decent whisky. If it had been more---1.25x? 2x? 3x?---I don't know what I would have done. Important questions, I think, but we could do with more rational discussion and less choosing sides. Hey, we're all sword enthusiasts, right? Nice! ;D +1 and well said.
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