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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:47:14 GMT
14th forsaken you bring up an interesting point. the same way that people taking out loans they couldn't afford is one of the principal reason we're in the slump we're in now, people wanting things for 5 and 10% over cost is whats killing the sword market now. look at it this way : if you want a Practical Plus, but you don't want to spend $400...... GET A JOB AND SAVE YOUR MONEY! if you want a PPK but only have $250 you CANT AFFORD THAT SWORD! get a cheness piece instead, i'm sure it will be VERY nice. shucks, Musashi has some real nice pieces for around that, even a little cheaper, but you CANNOT AFFORD A PPK IF YOU ONLY HAVE $250! its not a good DEAL, its BAD ECONOMICS. soon, places are going to have to LIE to get your business, and start SAYING the swords are $2500 to get their "real" value of $400 out of it, but you wont CARE that you're getting fleeced because you just want to feel like you've "Won" against the "EEEEEEVIL merchants", who just want to Nickel & Dime you to death. tell you strait up : the sword and knife stores i've had the privilege to both visit, patronize, and work at have ALL been about the passion and the fun of being in this industry and being able to handle and provide swords. NOT make loads of money by "Jacking Up" prices. and you really are just coming off more and more short sighted here. Shadowhowlers "wait and see" is surely a strategy after a kind, but MY fear is that (like the economy and climate change [supposedly]) it will be too late to fix by the time we see it's true effects you make me sad, sir knights You still do not have a valid reason why I should pay $400 for something that I know is only worth $250 on the free market. This is a capatalist market, the market sets the prices. If some store can find a way to sell the sword i want for $250 and make a profit, I'd be stupid to pay $400 for it. That is $150 less I have to save or spend on other goods and services. Besides, you don't know my financial situation or job status so please keep your ignorant observations to yourself as far as telling me to get a job or how to save my money. I can handle my own affairs quite nicely thank you very much.
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 4:54:52 GMT
Paying $400 for a PPK is like paying the sticker (sucker) price of a brand new car. In fact Cheness "regular price" of their katana cost around $300-$500, I would be a sucker to purchase at such an inflated price. In fact, some of those MSRP seems so arbitrary, (Cold steel MSRP is twice greater than the average price of most retailers).
If paying the MSRP (sticker,sucker) price is, in your opinion, "ethical", go ahead, Nobody will stop you. Let us other "sinners" go shop around for the best price.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:55:26 GMT
ignorance? no no. you've TOLD ME your financial status. 14th Forsakens financial status : Can't spend $400 for a sword. and YEA, like a home you need a $300,000 loan for is worth $300,000 ( roughly ) a sword with a $400 MSRP is $400 worth of sword. and as i stated RIGHT OFF THE BAT, until you can MAKE that sword with your two gotdam hands, you dont have CLUE ONE about what it's "worth" besides what the MAKER. TELLS. YOU.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:56:14 GMT
How do you know that it is worth $250? Is there somewhere that does appraisals on production pieces? Because if not, the people that put the effort into actually making the practical plus say that it's worth $399.
Also, I'm fairly certain that by YOU, Axidexfoliate meant US, and by US, he meant EVERYONE in the world. Kind of a "this land is made for you and me" type of thing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:59:46 GMT
ignorance? no no. you've TOLD ME your financial status. 14th Forsakens financial status : Can't spend $400 for a sword. and YEA, like a home you need a $300,000 loan for is worth $300,000 ( roughly ) a sword with a $400 MSRP is $400 worth of sword. and as i stated RIGHT OFF THE BAT, until you can MAKE that sword with your two gotdam hands, you dont have CLUE ONE about what it's "worth" besides what the MAKER. TELLS. YOU. You're so wrong on this its hilarious. Can I afford the $400 , easily. Do I know what the sword is worth, yes, because I do my research and I know what the market prices are for items of a similar type and quality. Worth is set by the MARKET not the price tag. This is elementary economics people.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:00:08 GMT
Paying $400 for a PPK is like paying the sticker (sucker) price of a brand new car. In fact Cheness "regular price" of their katana cost around $300-$500, I would be a sucker to purchase at such an inflated price. In fact, some of those MSRP seems so arbitrary, (Cold steel MSRP is twice greater than the average price of most retailers). If paying the MSRP (sticker,sucker) price is, in your opinion, "ethical", go ahead, Nobody will stop you. Let us other "sinners" go shop around for the best price. how'd that price hunting for new cars work out for the car makers? lets pretend for the sake of analogy that hanwei is pontiac.........
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:04:47 GMT
Paying $400 for a PPK is like paying the sticker (sucker) price of a brand new car. In fact Cheness "regular price" of their katana cost around $300-$500, I would be a sucker to purchase at such an inflated price. In fact, some of those MSRP seems so arbitrary, (Cold steel MSRP is twice greater than the average price of most retailers). If paying the MSRP (sticker,sucker) price is, in your opinion, "ethical", go ahead, Nobody will stop you. Let us other "sinners" go shop around for the best price. how'd that price hunting for new cars work out for the car makers? lets pretend for the sake of analogy that hanwei is saturn......... Hate to break it to you, but it's not my responsibility to keep Saturn or any other manufacturer in business. If they can't come up with a competitive business model they are going to fail and its nobody's fault but their own.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:08:14 GMT
How do you know that it is worth $250? Is there somewhere that does appraisals on production pieces? Because if not, the people that put the effort into actually making the practical plus say that it's worth $399. Also, I'm fairly certain that by YOU, Axidexfoliate meant US, and by US, he meant EVERYONE in the world. Kind of a "this land is made for you and me" type of thing. Hell, I can draw a doodle on a piece of paper and tell you it's worth $10,000, but that doesn't make it true. According to your logic, since I made it only I can say what its worth. Sure I could do it but unless a sucker came along, I'd be sitting here with a piece of paper on it with a doodle on it and a lot of people laughing at me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:08:29 GMT
ignorance? no no. you've TOLD ME your financial status. 14th Forsakens financial status : Can't spend $400 for a sword. and YEA, like a home you need a $300,000 loan for is worth $300,000 ( roughly ) a sword with a $400 MSRP is $400 worth of sword. and as i stated RIGHT OFF THE BAT, until you can MAKE that sword with your two gotdam hands, you dont have CLUE ONE about what it's "worth" besides what the MAKER. TELLS. YOU. You're so wrong on this its hilarious. Can I afford the $400 , easily. Do I know what the sword is worth, yes, because I do my research and I know what the market prices are for items of a similar type and quality. Worth is set by the MARKET not the price tag. This is elementary economics people. Nobody is saying that you're broke, Just that you're S00per D00per frugal and that attitudes like yours are why companies go out of business. Sure, you can get a sword of equal quality for around $250. But Paul Chen wants $399 for his. I could probably get a sword of similar quality for far less than I paid for my Christian Fletcher, but I paid what he told me because apparently I'm a "sucker"
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 5:10:17 GMT
Well companies like Saturn are not doing too well of course because consumers are free to choose the cars they like for the money (like Chevy, Kia, Toyota and other car companies doing relatively well even in crappy recession). Those that could not compete in the car industry will have to close shop sooner or later. The market so called "creative destruction" is vicious and jobs are loss as a result (telegraph, typewritter and pigeon carrier industry) but in the end, the most creative, efficient firms survive to get the money from consumer.
Surely you don't truely believe that Hanwei is like Saturn in car industry? To me at this point Hanwei is more like Toyota or VW in the sword industry.
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 5:16:34 GMT
Well Christian Fletcher is the sole maker of "Christian Fletcher sword", if you are not willing to pay for it, then you won't own the sword (well one could always bargain with him (if that is possible) to get lower price). In contrast on Hanwei PPK, Paul Chen wants $400 from me, but I can get it for $250 from my favourite dealer . You could pay Paul Chen $400, but most of us would go for $250.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:17:38 GMT
Saturn is doing far worse than "not too well" seeing as how there is no Saturn anymore, so no. Hanwei is not like Saturn at all because they are still in business. Though people insisting that their product is word hundreds of dollars less than it is sold for will inevitably end in them being just like Saturn.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:19:30 GMT
Hate to break it to you, but it's not my responsibility to keep Pontiac or any other manufacturer in business. If they can't come up with a competitive business model they are going to fail and its nobody's fault but their own. hey man, if you don't want to buy a Pontiac or a PPk, you dint have to buy one......but don't buy one. don't semprini that its too much, then just buy one anyway. and the point about the doodle is real interesting. cause it's what guys like Picasso and Bernini and Andy Warhol did. and it's in essence what guys like Tinker Pierce and Christian Fletcher do. and if it's OK for them, who the frak are you to say Paul Chen shouldn't, after all he's done to get where he is. if you had a NICE, stocking, Brick & Mortar near you, where you could compare the balance, feel and essentially the VALUE of the various swords, maybe it'd give you the kick in the pants to just SAVE THE MONEY for a PPK instead of deciding it's "worth" $x amount in contrast to a bunch of other swords you can't say you've felt or held in next to. you get so caught up over the "but everyones doing it" that you forget that that doesn't make it right. and you weren't always the sword (and economics!) expert you are today, someone had to teach you. and if you learned on line, someone taught the guys who DID teach you, and CHANCES ARE that happened in a sword store or a ren faire booth. and once your silly vague thoughts on worth and whats fare have diluted into the general populous of the sword community and there ARE no brick and mortars to CORRECT YOU (and trust me, the B&Ms spend MOST of their time correcting stupid S*$^ heard on the internet) then thats all we'll have : a mountain of experts who wont put out the cash needed to make Paul Chen, Tinker Pierce, Sonny Suttles decide this mess is worth it. whew. rant off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:23:07 GMT
Well Christian Fletcher is the sole maker of "Christian Fletcher sword", if you are not willing to pay for it, then you won't own the sword (well one could always bargain with him (if that is possible) to get lower price). In contrast on Hanwei PPK, Paul Chen wants $400 from me, but I can get it for $250 from my favourite dealer . You could pay Paul Chen $400, but most of us would go for $250. Hanwei is is the sole maker of Hanwei swords.. if you are not willing to pay for it, then you should buy a different sword. You say that you can get a sword that is similar in quality for much less? Get that one then. I'm sure if Christian sold his swords wholesale like Hanwei does he would be pretty annoyed if he saw his stuff sold for hundreds of dollars less because some guy said that is what it was "worth".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:24:51 GMT
I like how we're saying almost the same thing. Go Team!?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:27:30 GMT
Well Christian Fletcher is the sole maker of "Christian Fletcher sword", if you are not willing to pay for it, then you won't own the sword (well one could always bargain with him (if that is possible) to get lower price). In contrast on Hanwei PPK, Paul Chen wants $400 from me, but I can get it for $250 from my favourite dealer . You could pay Paul Chen $400, but most of us would go for $250. Hanwei is is the sole maker of Hanwei swords.. if you are not willing to pay for it, then you should buy a different sword. You say that you can get a sword that is similar in quality for much less? Get that one then. I'm sure if Christian sold his swords wholesale like Hanwei does he would be pretty annoyed if he saw his stuff sold for hundreds of dollars less because some guy said that is what it was "worth". That is basically what I do, I buy the sword I want for the price I'm willing to pay for it. That's MY decision. If someone wants to do something else, fine that's their business. I don't tell them how to spend their money, they don't tell me how to spend mine.
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 5:32:22 GMT
Agreed. Well isn't it nice we could at least on something
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:33:33 GMT
Agreed. Well isn't it nice we could at least on something +1 Karma for you sir!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:41:54 GMT
If you've been meaning this entire time that you would pay MSRP for something, just not one that you think is too high, I'm going to punch myself in the balls until I die.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 5:48:40 GMT
Not necessarily, if I can find the same item for less, I'm going to buy it there. Just smart with my money. I don't pay more than I have to for luxury items which a sword is. That's why I'm able to afford to buy the things I do, I get the best deals I can find and if I can't find something for a price I'm williing to pay, I dont buy it. That's just my personal philosophy with money. Yours may be differnet which is fine for you, to each their own. I just don't want someone coming in and telling me how I should spend my money. I earned it, I'll spend it how I choose.
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