Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 24, 2009 22:13:35 GMT
Those are certainly fine looking blades... no doubt about it... and I already know of Arno Eckhardt ... but I don't see any proof that they will out perform any comparable blade from Tinker, Powning , Ludemo , Evans, Barrett , etc....
I've seen Cold Steel blades flex to that degree... hell I've seen MRL swords flex to that degree... although if they are indeed over 60 HRC its pretty impressive... but HRC tests are imprecise and hard to trust... still , definitely impressive...
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Post by hotspur on Jul 24, 2009 23:51:06 GMT
First, I would offer that it is often manufacturers and "reviewers" that can often project a bit of false bravado and history when offering a sword's ability a bit out of context. Here is an easy example to follow but there have been a good many somewhat similar over time and quite often actions described on this particular venue. /index.cgi?board=europeansword&action=display&thread=10735 Second, I could hope folk might mine the depths of history instead of offering opinion without context or any actual basis of fact. It is easy for any such topic fall into a category of generalities instead of offering facts as they are truly recorded. As a generality, I would offer that swords "back in the day" are less mythological than are often presented in conversations regarding history. One could read of the Norman invasion, 1066 and all that. Then, note that barrels of munition grade swords were loaded on ships to cross the channel. Then, one might jump forward to 14th century manifests, port entries and the associated excise taxes for (once again) barrels and barrels of blades and finished swords reaching another destination. These evidences are recorded, as well as cost of living and values across the centuries. it is not unusual for swords to be held up as something unique, rare and better than some might expect. The truth is that by the time of the Norman invasion, they were far from simply only owned and purchased by some precius few. 14th century examples range from swords that might cost a common, even endentured, person all of a weeks pay to purchase these levels of product. Yes, there continue to be elaborately made and presented swords to the rich and famous but the precept of owning a sword was not some priveledge of the aristocrisy itself. Indeed, the medeival "militia" and call to arms set some requirements for ownership of arms and say, England in particular, eventually mandated and expected the public to own a sword. Sword manufacturing varied a great deal by the time of further progress after the first millenium after christ. It is also somewhat foolish to describe all swords made throughout time as only the wedged fitment as displayed and parroted as the only methodology used. In a sense, this paradox of expectations tends to obscure the truths and what is readily apparent once one does some real research on their own. Compression fitment remains and always has gone hand in hand with other methodology. That threads are now incorporated means little as a truly anachronistic fault because they were prevelant and more used than what some read of Albion's fitment as the only use found throughout history. Returning to sword use and abuse, one real problem is offering information somewhat out of context, not unlike the discussion between Gus and Michael Edelson in the (now) linked thread from SFI. That is truly only one instance of literally hundreds when the discussions of heavy sword have been brought up. For a good long time, a review and expectation use was downward blows to quarter inch plywood, cutting up wood skids along with flying pizza boxes and even some metal objects such as 55 gallon steel drums. Some of those have been regulated to shop experiences but some have been quite openly expressed as worthy of a try. What other activities might be expected by quite a few noted makers. See the linked thred in this post As to Gus' stuff particularly, all of the above paragraph and more have been used in his shop appraisals of swords. The continued problem is that many might feel such activity as everyday pastimes. Delving more into the past of the modern sword community of this century, one might occur some of the conversations regarding what is now the ATrim 1313. The basic sword was and continues to be a mainstay model that has been tweaked some but the basic sword has been made since 1999. A fellow named Joel Whitmore used to wander his local forest and cleave saplings up to a couple of inches in diameter and more in his bear like downward diagonal efforts. He dwarfs me and I am a large 6'2". Some time into that activity, he reported on the boards that he had cracked the grip. Gus replaced it with a gentle admonishment adn a suggestion to maybe lighten up a bit. Joel doesn't post around much these years but had graduated to an A&A English two-hander that is probably just about right for his build. I have been equally abusive swords at times but had determined my own limits and limitations of such activity. I will say that one of my lightest single hander swords is a favorite for light brush work. Historically (as now) swords have been used up and worn out Excercises such as tire the pell man activities over the years, while interesting and sometimes informative, offer little to a true scholar, collector and user of swords as far as what the history and make-up of swords have been. In the end, I would hope all to bear in mind their own contexts of heavyuse and be a little less worried about respectable use. What is repsectable and reasonable use? That is going to vary right along with personal experiences but don't expect that heavy use isn't going to wear out swords. In this thread's beginning, it appears to have been more an issue of owner operator maintenance than what is going to be classified as heavy and borderline use. The fitment most likely failed (and accepted by the user) in misues of a simple fastener. I still hope that Valiant, Christian and other vendors will put up a basic care in feeding regarding the fitment. This could even be an additional printed care and feeding note supplied with the sword itself. A few cents of packaging expense but something that might help others avoid any heartbreak. Cheers Hotspur; by and large, a good many modern made swords are miles ahead of yesteryear's potentials in use
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 0:20:31 GMT
Now lemal, go to that same site and click on 'Archäologie'. What follows is a long article about the quality of spathas and saxes. The project Arno Eckhart (the sword smith), Wolfgang Abart (the best longsword trainer in Germany) and a archeologist talk about was a comparison of some saxe blades with a japanese katana. They gave these blades to a famous japanese smith to look them over and check the quality. What he finds out is that these blades are as good as every katana blade he has ever made or seen. He actually was kind of shocked to have such great blades found in the grave of a FARMER and a poor man!!! Now imagine the blade of a rich guy, be it a king or whatever! If you want to get further information, I can translate some paragraphes for you. Trust me, you will buy that line then! Not even close. Sorry. Look at your "proof." An archeologist looked over the piece. Is he a materials scientist? Did he do any scientific testing of strength and quality--shear strength, tensile strength, or anything like x-ray examination of crystal structure? Tests of this sort have been done, BTW, and they do show amazing skill among some medieval smiths--far in excess of what would be expected from someone of that period, and what it took some detective work so that we can treat modern steel properly so that it matches the quality for the purpose of swords. But exceed modern steels? In ways that we just can never understand or match? Not at all. In fact we have a tautology here. If there were such a magic material, by analysis we would be understanding it, and either replicate it or seek to. It's like the claim there there are "supernatural" forces, and thus can never be scientifically examined. If such forces were truly and totally "non-physical," they would be unable to interact with physical matter! If they are able to interact with physical matter, then they are themselves physical--at worst exhibiting physical laws that have not been properly mapped out, but can be. And how do we do that? Uh, those same scientific methods that the allegedly "supernatural" phenomenon "can't be explained by." Anything any historical smith has ever done can be matched--or already is being matched. And what other proof do you cite. That it was handed to a Japanese smith. A man who might be in expert in how to make top-quality steel, but declarative knowledge how how TO do something does not translate automatically into a scientific understanding of physical structure. Michael Jordan was poetry in motion in how to sink a basketball, it does not mean he was an expert physicist about the forces, biomechanics and trajectory involved. Which is a moot point anyway, because the smith in question was ... comparing Euro archeological finds to traditional Japanese smithing. How about we compare the products of such smithing, medieval or modern, against well-treated modern production steel? Hell, let's put up a prized museum sword from a medieval Japanese smith, Mythbusters style, and see it cut through a good modern repro. Or put it up against mail in the style of the Viking vs. samurai Deadliest Warrior episode. (Hey, those shows might have been comical, but they did run empirical tests.) How could it ever constitute sword abuse when the historical smith created something unmatchable? And if the unmatchable Japanese smiths were so good, your evidence would just reinforce that the Euro smiths were just as unmatchable. But in the absence of demonstrable, empirical proof, I'm not even close to convinced.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 0:38:44 GMT
All this is going to a wrooong direction. As now, back then there were bad cheap swords given to a mass levy troops and there were swords ordered and bought by high nobility. You can't compare "modern swords" to ancient swords because diversity between the specimens in both category are to great. And of course you can't destructively test an ancient sword because (let's forget the worth of it today) it's at least few centuries old, maybe already fatigued, maybe the best one is ritually "killed" by annealing or bending... And it's not all in the quality of steel. As it is already said, you can make miracles with a crap steel as both Japanese and Dark Age European pattern welding masters did. So if we have superior steel it means nothing if we don't have the NEED to find out all the ways how to make a good blade out of it with various techniques of tempering and quenching and I don't know what else. And of course, durability isn't the only criteria of a good sword. Good sword is a compromise between handling, durability, offensive and defensive ability. Even if high end custom pieces beat the best historical swords in terms of durability, I doubt they beat them in all said factors. They could, but it would take far more research, time and money to be feasible in today's market. What we buy today is best available for the money we spent, but not the best of what could be made with right motivation behind the product.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 0:58:14 GMT
Also quite frankly, the skill of those old smiths was at a level that our smiths cannot match, yes I said it. Even with our you beaut metals and new fangled processes. We have some amazing smiths in the world but many of the old techniques have been lost. Take Yoshindo Yoshihara for example, arguably one of the greatest japanese swordsmiths alive but does his product compare with someone like Muramasa or Masamune? I think he would be the first to say that it doesn't, possibly out of a spirit of humility but to even try to compare yourself to some of the smiths of the past would be unheard of. It would be like trying to say that today's best warrior in the arts of the samurai is as good as the best samurai of ancient times, it would be a ridiculous claim because of the differences in our society. In our society a good sword is not a matter of life and death it is a luxury item that we could easily live without. In those days if you didn't have a sword or weapon you couldn't defend yourself from someone who did (well unless you were a samurai or a ninja). I don't think new metals and new processes can make up for the fact that our reasons for owning swords and our dependencies on them have change since ancient times.
Also if you want a sword that I don't think anyone has managed to reproduce yet, how about the bronze sword of the chinese king goujian 2500 BC and found in remarkable condition in a submerged tomb? The have done metal studies on it but as yet can't work out how it was actually made.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:06:51 GMT
Hotspur, can you please explain what your point is? I don't mean to sound rude, but I am ashamed to say that I am not intelligent enough to understand what you were trying tell us. It sounded to me like the man with the 1313 put it through some serious abuse without any bad damage (aside from the cracked grip, which is easily replaced, and accumulated stress). Would you say that these new Valiant Armoury swords are not as durable as say, an Angus Trim made sword?
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 25, 2009 1:14:17 GMT
The high end makers have the advantage of examing museum pieces, researching scholars works, measuring and quantifying all the specifications of antiques... etc, ad naseum.
Believe me ,the research has been done, and continues to be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:18:50 GMT
I'm sure it does, I'm not denying that. It continues, will it ever be done?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:21:36 GMT
Ah, more romanticism. I'm prey to it too, otherwise I wouldn't be into swords. Still ...
Go over the history of science and technology and you find that necessity is not only the mother of invention, but--when it comes up with an invention that's "good enough"--necessity isa force that paradoxically quashes invention.
Tradition, to use the questionable turn of phrase, "is a double-edged sword."
Esoteric example: Nitrogen is one of the key ingredients in our body processes. We breathe air that is about 70% nitrogen. Do we get the nitrogen in our tissues through breathing though? Nope. It comes through animals we eat, and the plants we and/or those animals eat, plants who themselves don't absorb nitrogen from the air but need to absorb it through bacteria who fix it in the soil. Why such a convoluted route with so many steps in which an error could occur? Because "biology is conservative." Evolution builds upon tweaking existing adaptations and also adapting them for other purposes--but it is in essence bound by tradition. Radical innovations are rare, no matter how much sense they make.
Less esoteric example: A woman who remembered the luscious Christmas ham she had as a youth had just gotten married and wanted to make it for her husband. When she checked w/ her mother, she asked her mother why mom always cut the ends off the ham. Mom didn't know, and sent the woman to her grandmother. The question was repeated, but Grandma didn't know, and sent the woman to her great-grandmother. The answer? When Great-Grandma was first married they lived in a tiny tenement w/ a tiny stove--the only way to make the ham fit was to cut off the ends.
Innovation exists in a dynamic balance between respecting tradition--and yet questioning it. NOT holding it up as some unapproachable, romanticized ideal. And in fact necessity, so long as immediate needs are met, often quashes invention because it creates fear of questioning tradition. And yes, that is very true of our ancestors, be they smiths and makers or warriors and martial artists. Evolution doesn't always optimize design. It rarely OPTIMIZES design. When the stakes are life and death, they become too high for most organisms--including people--to experiment with alternative designs that might be at least as good--and sometimes are even better.
Necessity is the mother of invention, but a child needs two parents. The father of invention is audacity and curiosity.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:31:01 GMT
and assumption is the mother of all f**k ups
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:32:40 GMT
Dangerous assumption there. Depends if you know how to use a sword properly, how to align the edge in the cut etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:34:38 GMT
Will someone please answer my question pertaining to Valiant Armoury's new swords?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 1:41:03 GMT
Dangerous question to answer, the reason I say dangerous is because you are comparing custom made to mass produced. VA take the designs and have them shipped off to china to have the blades produced. Angus Trim makes each blade himself to his exacting standards. Production never compares to custom. Does that mean these swords are bad or not durable in any way? No, I'm not saying that, I am sure they are extremely durable and will do you proud if you look after it.
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Post by hotspur on Jul 25, 2009 2:12:35 GMT
Hi Jonathan, Hotspur, can you please explain what your point is? I don't mean to sound rude, but I am ashamed to say that I am not intelligent enough to understand what you were trying tell us. It sounded to me like the man with the 1313 put it through some serious abuse without any bad damage (aside from the cracked grip, which is easily replaced, and accumulated stress). Would you say that these new Valiant Armoury swords are not as durable as say, an Angus Trim made sword? There is no reason any should seem shamed in trying to understand what I posted. However, if what you determined from that brief analogy is to then question the worth of the Valiant series; It looks to me as the rest of the post has been entirey ignored and of little use to you. Why on earth would I then want to compare one to the other when that was not what I had to offer in fairly clearly expressed thought? My "essay" regarded many other things discussed in this thread but non comparing a Gus sword to any other, specifically the Valiant swords. Cheers Hotspur; easier for me to not reply at all and then just shake my head in wonderment
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 2:35:23 GMT
No, I did learn a lot from your previous post. It seemed to me like you were stating several different facts, rather than specifically pointing something out. While what you brought to my attention was educational, it did not answer my question. I would like to know how Valiant Armoury swords compare to Angus Trim, Albion, and Arm and Armour swords in terms to durability.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 25, 2009 2:45:24 GMT
Jonathan, I don't know much about the treatment of steel and such but I can tell you that the tang construction on a genuine Atrim is superior to that on the VA practicals. More beefy and of one piece for sure. I'd do a comparison photo for you but I epoxied the hilts on my VAs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 2:55:39 GMT
Now it seems that I am right back where I once was. I would like to get the 1313, but I don't know if it is really worth not getting the scabbard/belt/fancy hilt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 2:58:51 GMT
Hotspur: that was a fantastic post indeed. I have to agree with what you said, especially the part about we determine our own understanding of abuse. It must be pointed out (I am pretty sure you did but doesn't hurt to reiterate) that abusive demonstrations are not a continuous everyday event. I have seen paul testing blades on steels drums and such but I have never seen him do it more than once. I guess one of the biggest things about owning swords is knowing your limits and their limits and staying within the boundaries of both.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 3:05:38 GMT
Jon, No one really knows the answer to your question. My answer: Who cares? With proper care and use all of them will last you years. You are looking for a definitive answer where there is none. If you really want to know buy one of each and start destroying them. Let us know the results. Anyone can use their swords anyway they like. As with most everything, anything they use their sword on will shorten it's lifespan. Somethings will wear swords out faster than others. Poor edge alignment will also decrease it's life. Poor care and cleaning are factors. You want your sword to last longer? Cut light targets like bottles and mats and use perfect alignment every swing (in theory). When cut properly bottles offer little resistance. You want to cut trees and steel cans don't expect any sword to hold up forever. Were swords made to strike metal armor and shields? To a point. I am sure that it was understood that doing that will increase the chance of the blade breaking. That every strike on a breastplate instead of the soft flesh beneath gave a swordsman a wince and the thought "damn. that wasn't good" to race through his head I think is a safe bet. Yes, I would say they were made to withstand these harder targets but only to a certain degree and it certainly wasn't the preferred method of attack. And any sword maker would of any time would recommend against it. What constitutes abuse is basically subjective. But knowing that somethings have a better chance of stressing your blade is just common sense. We all should try to have some of this scarce commodity.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 3:26:14 GMT
Would you consider water bottle cutting every day abuse?
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