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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 17:44:32 GMT
I am still somewhat confused. From reading your thread about tangs, I though that the area of the tang that goes through the pommel encounters the most stress. I am looking at the pictures of the Bristol's tang, and the very end that goes through the pommel looks like a skinny little twig. How on earth can that small strip of metal withstand someone just swinging the sword around? Do the shoulders of the tang near the end go through the pommel as well?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 20, 2009 17:57:59 GMT
I thought the pommel was keyed to that thicker portion of the tang, but possibly not. If not then the design is about the same strength as a threaded on pommel. Which is not necessarily bad, just not the best. Some concessions have to be made to make production swords at an affordable price after all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 18:04:24 GMT
That is true, but I wonder why Angus Trim uses the same type of tang construction if it isn't that great. I'm sure that there is an explanation as to why this sword broke, and an explanation about the strength of this particular type of tang.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 18:13:59 GMT
the first centemetre or so goes over the larger shoulder of the tang
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 20, 2009 18:17:48 GMT
I assumed Atrims were keyed. If they are keyed, then there's nothing at all wrong with the design. If not, then it's just not the best, but not necessarily bad. But like I said, concessions. There's a fair amount of extra time and effort involved in making a keyed pommel. Someone has to pay for that time somewhere along the line.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 20, 2009 18:20:52 GMT
Well there you go, it is keyed.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 20, 2009 18:45:52 GMT
All ATrim type pommels go up past the thinner rod-like section. I'd go so far as to say that when they are really fitted right, you have to tap the pommel that last bit to seat it onto the tang. The threaded part is just to keep it tight. It's not really much of a sideways load-bearing area. It just pulls the pommel onto the tang. However, some swords (especially the Chinese made swords) don't fit as tightly in this area. So that allows the threads to take a little bit of load. But the only area where this seems to be a problem is in 2-handed swords where you use the pommel for leverage by the 2nd hand. In single hand swords, the pommel doesn't receive nearly as much torque. And while it may look "twiggy" that rod, at least on an ATrim-built blade, is damned strong. If you look at bare blades from most manufacturers, they look about that size in that area. My money says hairu just had an individual lemon. But that's just a guess...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 19:11:39 GMT
I don't know, but the threaded part of the rod on Shadow's sword looks MUCH shorter than on Hairu's. So I guess Hairu's word is just different, maybe in a bad way. We have to wait until Sonny chimes in to solve that problem, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 19:36:16 GMT
All ATrim type pommels go up past the thinner rod-like section. I'd go so far as to say that when they are really fitted right, you have to tap the pommel that last bit to seat it onto the tang. The threaded part is just to keep it tight. It's not really much of a sideways load-bearing area. It just pulls the pommel onto the tang. However, some swords (especially the Chinese made swords) don't fit as tightly in this area. So that allows the threads to take a little bit of load. But the only area where this seems to be a problem is in 2-handed swords where you use the pommel for leverage by the 2nd hand. In single hand swords, the pommel doesn't receive nearly as much torque. And while it may look "twiggy" that rod, at least on an ATrim-built blade, is damned strong. If you look at bare blades from most manufacturers, they look about that size in that area. My money says hairu just had an individual lemon. But that's just a guess... That is what I am afraid of - I will be using the pommel on my swords as a grip, and this will cause the tange to break. I would rather get a clunky yet durable beater from gen2 or DSA than have a lively sword that will break from light target cutting. I really do hope that hairu just got a botched Bristol, because the practical/signature VA swords look so good aesthetically, and the price is great too. I will patiently await Sonny's explanation. Even if there is a problem, I really doubt that it is Sonny's fault. I am still going to get a VA sword or two anyways, just because I know that Sonny's customer service is second to none.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 20, 2009 19:49:48 GMT
I havent seen a case yet where an ATrim or a VA sword broke from light cutting... has anyone else? Even if this sword was an aberration with an inclusion, it was still abused before it was torqued apart ....
So even with an inclusion, or what have you, the sword stood up to some heavy use....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 19:51:27 GMT
I just called sonny about my sword he is shipping me a new one and Im gunna ship him the old one for inspection, he believes that sword was most likely a fluke as theyve had tons of these swords made and nothing like this happen before. the swords are made in a very specific way which is strong, and it is quite possible that someone might have just messed up in the forge and covered their mistake or something like that. besides that I was tightening the sword a little more than it should have been as the nut is meant to be nice and snug not Iremovably tight (which is what I had been going for)
and as an added bonus sonny has shown some of the very best costumer service ive ever seen and I deffinately look forward to buying more of their swords (once my funds replenish and after I buy a new camera)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 0:57:11 GMT
Well one should be showing the proper respect to a sword anyway, want to abuse a weapon get a polearm ........... My sword only really touch milk bottles with their flimsy plastic, I dont even do many soda bottles cause their plastic is hard. Now and again I get a big budget dog meat sausage with the plastic around it, hang it up and cut that ............ blades were meant for meat afterall
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 3:11:01 GMT
my swords a vegetarian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 4:19:11 GMT
I been following all this and, it seems that Sonny dude is super cool.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 4:23:48 GMT
yeah he is I talked to him on the phone it was highly entertaining
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 21, 2009 5:41:33 GMT
Heh! Who ever heard of such a thing? My swords HUNGER for flesh!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 6:21:01 GMT
My DSA is a Omnivore....It will eat any thing!!!!! .......................SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 17:52:23 GMT
This really is interesting though. What do we classify as "light cutting"? Does it only include water bottles and tatami? I honestly wonder if we have the wrong idea of what a sword should be. Just take some time to think about it. Swords were meant to kill people. People are composed of flesh, bone, tendons, ligaments, muscle and fat. Would the human body be considered a light target? Maybe we are wrong, and the swords we label "beaters" are actually closer to a real sword than modern performance swords are. I am probably wrong, but it is just a thought.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 21, 2009 18:09:37 GMT
This really is interesting though. What do we classify as "light cutting"? Does it only include water bottles and tatami? I honestly wonder if we have the wrong idea of what a sword should be. Just take some time to think about it. Swords were meant to kill people. People are composed of flesh, bone, tendons, ligaments, muscle and fat. Would the human body be considered a light target? Maybe we are wrong, and the swords we label "beaters" are actually closer to a real sword than modern performance swords are. I am probably wrong, but it is just a thought. When you consider that the guys that make modern "performance swords" exhaustively and exstensively examine and study museum pieces and antiques to get their concepts of what a sword should be.. I'd say that they are way closer to the truth than beater manufacturers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 18:15:00 GMT
I think that the human body is a lot less resiliant than you think
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