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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 22:43:05 GMT
As cutting targets go, and sorry to be morbid here, the human body offers both more resistance and less resistance than most people think. However the thing about the human body is that light cutting (relatively speaking) will have more impact on the human body. Depending on where you strike, the hardest cut on the human body that you can perform is a hip to hip cut through the bones of the hip bisecting them perfectly in half (this one of the cuts taught in JSA) cutting through and arm or a leg or even through bone is not as heavy a target as some people like to think.
As to what constitutes light cutting, it depends on your training and your experience. Cutting plastic soda bottles could be considered as abusive and heavy cutting due to the nature of the construction of said soda bottle, especially when filled with water. Tatami is not so much a heavy cutting target (depending on the rolls) as a cutting target that requires skill and understanding of the medium and a sharp blade. Cutting through tree limbs is sword abuse, they were not designed to do it. My idea of light cutting are plastic milk jugs with thinner plastic walls, newspaper either rolled or hanging in a single sheet (also great for understanding edge alignment), pool noodles (great medium that can be very challenging but won't damage your sword on a flubbed cut like tatami can and does), polystyrene (this one is a tricky one because it depends on how thick the polystyrene is), last but not least pringle containers filled up with water (great fun, these are one of my all time favourite cutting mediums, because you can pretty much go nuts without worrying about damaging your weapon.)
Hope this helps
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 22:53:26 GMT
If anything, this incident has made me even more interested in buying a Bristol, or any other sword from Sonny for that matter.
The response time and customer service evidenced here is absolutely stunning to witness. Besides, if this is what it takes for a failure on a part of this sword I don't know what the worrying over structural integrity is all about.
There was an evident discoloration in the threaded portion, and what ever it may have been, the system did not fail during use at all, even though the blade sustained a direct hit to the cutting stand and hacked through several branches. The guy himself said everything was fine when he took it apart, it was during reassembly that the issue arose.
When he intentionally over-tightened it, or as he put it, went "to screw the thing back together. I do so its all tight and good and then i tighten it a little bit more to make sure it never comes loose again" is when the piece broke.
Have you seen Hairu's arms?!? Goodness gracious. I've seen people half his size snap large bolts by overcranking them, so it's hardly surprising that something went when he went to make sure it was "never come loose" tight. I'm impressed that the threads did not strip. That is a rock solid hex nut assembly if the rod itself snaps before the system will fail.
I really feel for what happened to Hairu, when he was just trying to make sure his baby was solid. But---happy ending! He gets a brand new beauty to play with after all is said and done.
Bottom line: Hairu is a sculpted man of beastly strength. Sonny is a man of his word and his generosity. This sword is badass. Definitely next on my list. (Besides, what are the chances this won't be QC checked for on all of these swords from now on and this could ever happen again?)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 23:59:19 GMT
To me it seems like bone would be a lot tougher than one inch tree limbs. Since I am speculating and have not ever handled a "real" sword, or cut anything resembling a human body, I will trust the word of those who have. Who have handled "real" swords, that is (I'm pretty sure that none of our modern sword makers have ever cut a human body).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 0:08:34 GMT
I have cut the equivalent of a hip cut in tatami and it is probably the hardest cut to perform. Bone is an interesting one when compared to a "green" tree. I have cut through turkey bones which is quite hard but I still consider tree limbs to be far more abusive (note: I would not use a sword to cut through bones or tree limbs, I would however use my wraith and I have). I prefer to keep swords for cutting what they are designed to cut, namely tatami (different amount of rolls simulate different parts of the body) also depends on the tatami as well, though I am not above cutting the occasional soft drink bottle, milk bottle or water filled pringles container.
Lunaman: you have a point, hex nuts aren't designed to be "as tight as" there needs to be a little bit of looseness, not so loose that anything rattles but not so tight that you de-thread the nut or cause it to snap and yes with a little leverage and a little muscle you can easily snap a threaded tang.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 0:18:52 GMT
To me it seems like bone would be a lot tougher than one inch tree limbs. Since I am speculating and have not ever handled a "real" sword, or cut anything resembling a human body, I will trust the word of those who have. Who have handled "real" swords, that is (I'm pretty sure that none of our modern sword makers have ever cut a human body). Bloodwraith has it right. Living bone (well, or fresh-killed) is remarkably vulnerable to cuts. Take it from someone who a)works on this stuff as a physiologist/bioengineer and b) has probably cut about 12 tons--not kidding--of deer carcass. (Remember I once mentioned my neighbor for many years had the job of picking up roadkill for the Minnesota DNR). What's confusing to people is that living bone IS far more resilient to a number of injuries, precisely because it has enormous tensile and compressive strength. That's because it's living tissue though; your muscles also have great strength in those ways. Unfortunately, sharp blades cleave living tissue frighteningly well. Even hip bones, with any number of swords, are a piece of cake. I can see the artistry in trying to do it cleanly, all the way through and on a flat plane. But if "good enough to kill" is the aim, it's not that hard. (Pun intended. ) Wood, on the other hand, has a cellular composition with cell WALLS, and gets exponentially harder on something like a sword blade. That's why inch thick might be doable but, say, five or six inches becomes gross abuse!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 0:34:20 GMT
To me it seems like bone would be a lot tougher than one inch tree limbs. Since I am speculating and have not ever handled a "real" sword, or cut anything resembling a human body, I will trust the word of those who have. Who have handled "real" swords, that is (I'm pretty sure that none of our modern sword makers have ever cut a human body). This is pretty close to what you're talking about. Seems to cut through bone well enough
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 1:16:48 GMT
I would definately agree with you there, Chris. I suppose that I was wrong, but I am still thinking about the unavoidable blows to other swords or armor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 1:52:10 GMT
This is pretty much what I was told by my Longsword instructor in my first lesson.
edit for spelling
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 2:16:36 GMT
the density of living bone and dead bone (bone that isn't growing) is exponentially different in strength, but you also have to understand as lemal put it so well, that bone is resistant in terms of certain types of damage, not cuts. Believe me it isn't hard to put a blade through a turkey bone but try snapping or fracturing it and you will see the difference.
Johnathan: I understand you are excited and enthusiastic and I will say this as nicely as I can. It is best not to make comments and then have to make retractions. By all means give us your opinion but try to make it about things that you actually know. Sorry if that was harsh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 5:31:34 GMT
well bone is pourus right ? whereas wood is made of fibers and ass you cut the fibers they stack up and become stronger and harder to cut bone is stronger in various other ways (as afore mentioned) but its chemical and physical make up, make it relatively easy to cut
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 5:35:24 GMT
wood is porous as well, it just doesn't have plains of fracture like bones do. Also the way a tree grows gives it greater strength than bone. I think the real reason that bone is easy to cut is that it isn't completely solid whereas wood, especially wood that is still green or growing on a tree is solid. The reason bone isn't completely solid and therefore easier to cut is because of all that lovely jelly in the middle that we call bone marrow. When you take into account the density of the bone marrow, bones really aren't all that strong on a horizontal plain, that is why when you are taught to break bones in martial arts you break them on a horizontal plain not a vertical one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 6:42:56 GMT
Actually the biggest difference, as I alluded to, is that plant cells have both cell membranes and cell walls, while animal cells, even and including bone, do not.
For a crude but effective analogy, imagine the difference between cutting a large but open 5 gallon plastic bucket--and an assembly of the same diameter of sealed half-liter bottles.
The rigidity of the cell walls both magnifies their own strength and creates multiple areas of independent compartments supported by their own hydrostatic pressure.
Cell membranes alone are just fluid bilayers of molecules that easily separate under a thin shear stress like a cutting blade.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 8:14:18 GMT
nice, very well said
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 11:57:56 GMT
All that is true, but we still shouldn't forget the fact that swords didn't meet only flesh and bone during a fight, but also metal and wood. Even if you are really careful to avoid parrying with the edge of your sword that edge will still hit armour like mail or plates and also wodden shields. While some swords didn't survive a single battle, I'm sure that most swords were still in usable condition after a fight. Yes, the blades were nicked and stuff, put they still worked. I mean, hell, there are swords in museums that were used for decades!! Sure, after a fight a blacksmith would give his best to take care of the damage but the swords were also able to withstand a lot of stuff we would consider sword abuse. That's why some swords still exist today. Swords were extremely well made tools of war. The broke sometimes but more often they didn't.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 22, 2009 14:04:46 GMT
Dunno if it's relevant but I have a youtube vid of some people cutting a pig carcass, meat, skin, fat, bone - it's all there. They do it with a humble Hanwei Albrecht. No the sword doesn't break. They even have a doctor on hand for expert analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 22:02:50 GMT
Have you seen those Cold Steel Promotional videos where they do the same thing? There's one where the big guy just goes loppin' away at the pig, beheading it with one swing and then keeping on chopping right through on transverse planes. Not a ton of resistance with a big sharp sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 22:26:29 GMT
Here it is--The guy starts going at it around the two-minute mark. And this is even without ideal form, he's just muscling away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 23:11:19 GMT
That's...one minced up pig.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 23:22:28 GMT
I didn't say anything about swords breaking, I just said it could be considered sword abuse. Banging a sharp sword against another sharp sword or against armour in this day and age is sword abuse and also bloody dangerous in most circumstances. Sword abuse doesn't necessarily mean "will break" it just means that you are putting your sword through a rigorous and often unwise series of tests that it doesn't really need to go through. Now the likes of Paul Southren, well that is a different matter all together, he does it for the benefit of the community, it doesn't always look safe to us but Paul has a great deal of experience doing this kind of thing. Am I saying don't abuse your own swords? No, not my place to make that call. What I am saying is that personally, I don't think sword abuse is necessary.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 23, 2009 1:11:10 GMT
Yeah... people dont understand that sword abuse doesnt necessarily equal immediate damage... as with many things heavy use, or abuse of swords can be a cumalative thing...
Consider this quote from Gus Trim...
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