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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 16:55:33 GMT
You're definitely right about wider thinner blades cutting better than thicker more narrow blades. I just wouldn't want to generalize that to different types of cross section. You can usually tell by a blade's profile what degree of compromise between cut and thrust it is intended to be. But almost anytime you have a diamond cross section, it means the blade is meant to have at least some thrusting ability. It may still be rather wide and thin, making it a good cutting sword but it will likely taper to a more acute point. In my experience swords with a lot of profile taper can still cut quite well but only if you cut closer to the hilt than you would with say a type X. In a real fight (when the last few inches of the blade are very important) those last few inches are going to largely dictate the function of the sword. I could be wrong but I doubt Atrims or Albions have the issues I mentioned. You could make all your swords from the same bar stock if you just removed more thickness from the blades that should be thinner. That is, if you started with some rather thick bar stock. I'm sure there is some truth to all of what has been said. I think you probably have more cutting experience than I do, and that means something too. Do you mean that type XIIAs would be the wider thinner blade and type XVIs would be thicker narrow blades?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 17:22:39 GMT
it is my understanding that Albion starts all their swords as .2" flat stock. the point above was not that they would not taper them but that starting with flat stock limits your options as to how thick a blade can be and that dictates a certain amount of compromise in making a sword. not that this means a sword made that way is bad somehow. if your stock is 3" wide and .2" thick you are limited by those deminsions versus a forging method where you can stretch the metal to the deminsions you need. I've seen the "how we make it" video by Albion and I can say their stock is very wide. so yeah they waste a lot of steel in making a sword but that will give them more flexibility in design too. manufacturers that make cheaper swords have a tighter proffit margin and cannot afford so much waste, so I would bet they use narrower stock and therefor waste less but are limited more in design. so yes, Albion does a better job (we all knew that) but they are still limited to making thinner swords because no matter what they cannot make a sword with a thickness of more than .2" (or whatever the thickness of their stock is exactly, but it fairly thin). Angus Trim, I am told, occasionally uses thicker stock but I don't know what the exact deminsions of his stock is. no matter what sort of stock one uses there are limitations set by its size. interestingly, this doesn't mean stock removal is automatically inferior to forging. I think stock removal is easier to control and more exact so it will produce better swords until you compare it to a very high level of forging skill. most forged swords start out as bar stock too. the smith hammers in the begining of the primary bevel, the tang is drawn out, and the point is rough-formed. the rest is pretty much ground out a lot like stock removal. very few smiths start with a lump of steel. that's a LOT more work, which makes the sword a LOT more expensive. but I digress. this discussion has gone to a lot of interesting places.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jun 25, 2009 17:33:31 GMT
Ummmm not sure about all of this... but please read this quote from Gus Trim which seems to make it clear that Albion uses thicker bar-stock....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 17:35:27 GMT
In general, yes. Obviously there are going to be variations though.
Obviously a thinner blade is going to pass through a target with less resistance but you sacrifice some of the blade's rigidity. To make a blade better at thrusting you have to give the blade some of that thickness back. Otherwise it may be a bit whippy to thrust well. That's what a thick spined diamond section blade is for. This is especially true of a hallow ground sword. It allows you to have a thicker spine while saving weight. With all these and more variables involved, you can mix them in various ways to create a unique balance between a cut and thrust orientation in a given sword.
To be honest i don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to be speaking definitively on stuff like this but i think you can get the general ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 17:43:48 GMT
As Luka pointed out, according to KOA, the Ringeck's blade is 9mm thick at the hilt. That's well over a quarter of an inch. So Albion must use some pretty thick bar stock to start with. I guess the extra steel is just part of overhead.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 18:08:54 GMT
yeah well I cannot claim to really know what Albion uses, I was going off something I was told once and I may not even be remembering it correctly. I'm sure Gus knows better than I do.
it's all about trade-offs really. if there was a perfect combination between thrusting and cutting and power and speed there would only be one type of sword and a bunch of old abandoned designs that were considered failures.
I'm primarily a cutter and do very little thrusting thus my view-point on swords is cut-oriented. what works for me may not work for someone else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 18:20:32 GMT
That is very true. Pretty much sums it up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 18:43:46 GMT
So the 1315 is the shorter one and the 1313 is the longer one? Odd...but I do love that particular longsword. I might have to get me one too...but in the form of the...wait for it...wait for it...
Templar. lol
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 21:49:33 GMT
It's nice to know that we finally got back on the subject. Ebon Paladin, what do you mean by "Templar"? (I know who the Knights Templar were and all that good stuff, I am talking about the 1313 Templar form) Is CF or AT making a new sword or lineup?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 25, 2009 22:00:57 GMT
The new Valiant Armoury Templar. Blade designed by Gus Trim. Hilt designed by Christian Fletcher. Sword built by a Chinese forge and imported by Sonny Suttles.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 22:11:02 GMT
I looked on CF's website and I saw the Crusader, but no Templar.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 25, 2009 22:20:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 22:25:25 GMT
Does that mean that the Templar is the equivalent of the 1313?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 25, 2009 22:27:14 GMT
No, different blade design.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 22:44:45 GMT
I wish it had more pictures. Ebon Paladin, do you like the crusades a lot or something? Your avatar appears to be garbed in a crusader surcoat, chainmail, and the common helm worn by crusaders at that time. And now you want to get the Templar. I sense a pattern, unless I am wrong.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jun 25, 2009 22:52:53 GMT
I wish it had more pictures. Ebon Paladin, do you like the crusades a lot or something? Your avatar appears to be garbed in a crusader surcoat, chainmail, and the common helm worn by crusaders at that time. And now you want to get the Templar. I sense a pattern, unless I am wrong. Oh yeah, our friend the Ebon Paladin is a big fan of Crusaders.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 23:26:46 GMT
So am I. I have loved anything related to the Crusades for a few years now, ever since I read "The Celtic Crusades" by Stephen R. Lawhead. It was a great book series, and I recommend that you read it if you like the crusades. I even have a Knights Templar ring, although it is a very cheap (and obviously fake). It has the red cross on a white background, and engraven around it is "Sicillum Militum Xpisti" which reads "the seal of the soldier of christ" in Latin. On the back "Templar" is engraven. I know that the real Knights Templar ring had their emblem on it, the two knights on one horse, but I think my ring is cool because I have always like the red cross/white background. Anyways, that's a little off-subject. The point is - The Ebon Paladin is not alone.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 23:38:40 GMT
speaking of crusades inspired swords that are pretty darn nice, take a look at this thread over at Myarmory. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=164807yup, I'm gettting #2 of that line. already spoken to Christian Fletcher about it. mine will be a tad different but based on the same sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2009 1:18:59 GMT
The Antioch looks beautiful. I heard that it performs even better than it looks, though. There are so many swords I want, it's frustrating. I guess I will just have to be content with my plain old 1313.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jun 26, 2009 3:13:40 GMT
I rather like a "plain"sword myself. Utiltarian function appeals to me.
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