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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 23, 2009 6:11:33 GMT
and thus we find ourselves on page 6. ;D no worries man, keep the questions coming.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 13:23:47 GMT
I think, Jonathan, that you will find being a sword collector isn't just a passing hobby; you're in this now. Get your first sword, savor the hell out of it, and prepare yourself for the next. I was comparing my expenses with that of a friend who loves motorcycles; he races one and has another as a streetbike. When he started telling me what his costs were, I immediately translated it into how many really good swords I could get. It was a lot. I don't have the money this guy does but its just as well...my wife would probably kill me if I had a new sword coming in every week or so.... But that's the dream, don't you see?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 23, 2009 15:00:02 GMT
that's the dream: getting killed by your wife with the newest sword you just bought. LOL. yup they are like potato chips few people can be satisfied with just one. I think you are going with the right idea to start out though: Quality over quantity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 16:02:41 GMT
Yea...I started out with quantity and am slowly realizing that the quality is what I'm truly after- although having what I have, it is an interesting mix of swords. I like it; you gotta do what works for you, you know?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 1:49:35 GMT
I want a sword that is like the Kriegschwert, but a little bit "beefier". I don't really want it to be quite as thick as the XIIIs or XIIIAs, but I still want it to have that presence that comes with a powerful longsword. Do you guys think that the 1313 would be a good choice? It looks reasonable enough. I have never seen anyone cut with it, though. I wish there was a video of it cutting a wide range of targets.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 20:23:13 GMT
It sounds like you're looking less for a production sword and more towards a custom piece...you should keep in mind that whatever sword you choose, you want to be able to use it so when it comes to 'beefier' swords you may not want it as beefy as you think.
I know DSA and Gen2 make their swords to withstand lots of abuse so they're beefy by trade; since they generally run under $300 you could pick one up and decide whether or not if you like it and if you do, there are a number of cutlers and craftsmen here who can help you customize it if you're so inclined; also, if you do not like it, we have a large Classified's section that I'm sure we all watch hungrily waiting for the latest and greatest items that someone else may not want but one of us will.
Any Atrim you get is by and large going to be a good, if not rather plain, sword. Having said that, you really can't go wrong with one of those. I'm not familiar with the 1313, but I do have the 1315 variant by VA (AT303S) and it is a good little sword. Best of luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 21:11:58 GMT
As of now I am going to get the 1313. I may change my mind, but it is the closest sword to what I want. I might get the grip or pommel customized some, but that will be all. I almost decided to buy dand's "Vinland" from the classifieds, but he said that it was not for sale anymore. It looked magnificent, so good, in fact, that I was going to forgo getting a medieval sword and get it (the Vinland). The 1313 will be good for me, though. I won't have enough money to get the Albions I was looking at, and the 1313 is the next best thing. So unless I decide to get a one handed sword, in which case I probably could get an Albion, I will get the 1313 (hopefully customized a little). I am still perplexed somewhat about the blade geometry of swords. I always thought that swords with lenticular cross sections cut better than swords with diamond cross sections. I have watched almost all of ShooterMike's videos on youtube, and most of his swords with diamond cross sections appear to cut as good or better than his swords with lenticular cross sections. I don't know about heavier targets, but he was cutting waterbottles like no tommorow.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 24, 2009 21:56:15 GMT
Well Jonathan most of the swords available on the production market will cut water bottles like there's no tomorrow so long as they have a proper edge, also Shooter Mike could probably cut water bottles with a plastic spork and leave the bottom standing on some of them. the 1313 will be a good sword. generally the longer the plane of the primary bevel the better a sword will cut but the less forgiving it is of edge alignment (flatened diamonds tend to have this advantage). lenticular swords or swords that have heavily curved tear drop or apple seed shapes will be tougher and more forgiving of edge alignment but since the target has to be spread further apart for the sword to pass they will not cut as smoothly but may still cut better for a person with less experience since they can tolerate edge alignment being a little more off.
in short, all geometries are different and have their own advantages and disadvantages. some will work better for you than others, part of the equation is finding what you are comfortable with, or training yourself to cut in a way friendly to your particular sword.
if you want to take a look at some of my videos here's a thread that has most of the cutting from a little gathering I had at my place a few months ago. there's a lot of different swords there. five people showed up with swords, four of us brought our whole collection. there are japanese swords as well as many western models. the longsword I use is the Custom tuned AT304 practical from Valiant Armory which is based on the 1313. so basically the long sword I use is the same as what you are looking at getting but mine isn't quite as good. keeping that in mind notice just how good of a cutter my longsword is. link: /index.cgi?board=cutting&action=display&thread=9646
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Post by shadowhowler on Jun 24, 2009 21:59:24 GMT
I have watched almost all of ShooterMike's videos on youtube, and most of his swords with diamond cross sections appear to cut as good or better than his swords with lenticular cross sections. I don't know about heavier targets, but he was cutting waterbottles like no tommorow. Gotta warn ya kid, watching ShooterMikes vids can lead to feelings of inferiority. His cutting vids personify the idea that it's not so much the sword, but the swordsman that makes the difference. Mike has a LOT of great swords, this is true... but Mike can cut well with a rusty butterknife. Mike could cut better with a $100 Windlass then I can with a $1,000 Albion. I have gotten some swords from Mike, and he has a sword of mine. So I have cut with swords Mike has cut with, and he has cut with swords I have cut with... ...and there is NO comparasion. He makes the swords do things I can't even come close to... yet. I'm working on it. So... just bare in mind... what Mike can do with a sword and what you can do with the very same sword are NOT always gonna be the same thing, or even close.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 24, 2009 22:22:48 GMT
Shadowhowler has hit the nail perfectly on the head here. +1 for the truth and honesty in that post.
know that what Shadowhowler says about him and Mike could be said about just about any body and Shooter Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 23:51:33 GMT
Well Jonathan most of the swords available on the production market will cut water bottles like there's no tomorrow so long as they have a proper edge, also Shooter Mike could probably cut water bottles with a plastic spork and leave the bottom standing on some of them. the 1313 will be a good sword. generally the longer the plane of the primary bevel the better a sword will cut but the less forgiving it is of edge alignment (flatened diamonds tend to have this advantage). lenticular swords or swords that have heavily curved tear drop or apple seed shapes will be tougher and more forgiving of edge alignment but since the target has to be spread further apart for the sword to pass they will not cut as smoothly but may still cut better for a person with less experience since they can tolerate edge alignment being a little more off. in short, all geometries are different and have their own advantages and disadvantages. some will work better for you than others, part of the equation is finding what you are comfortable with, or training yourself to cut in a way friendly to your particular sword. link: /index.cgi?board=cutting&action=display&thread=9646 Are you saying that flattened diamonds have the advantage of easy edge alignment? I am confused about what you said. What I got out of it is lenticular is better for unexperienced people, but diamond is better if you know how to use it right. Please correct me if I am wrong, because I didn't fully understand.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 2:20:27 GMT
I'm sure a good deal of it is subjective...
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 3:44:56 GMT
you got the second half right. basically the narrower broad blades often found on flattened diamond need to spread the target less in order to get through so they cut targets more smoothly but they do not tolerate edge alingment mistakes at all and even a slight error in edge alignment can bring your sword to a binding stop in a heavy target or bat away a light target. they cut better but only if you can perform to their exacting standards thus they are better swords for more experienced cutters and not as good for newer cutters. which is not to say a new cutter can't use them. jst that it is harder for them.
Lenticular and other geometries that have a thicker swell to the blade (what the japanese guys call "niku") will cut successfully at less perfect edge alignment but because the blade is thicker it has to spread the target farther to get through thus making the cut have more resistnce and being less smooth. the bonus is that if your edge alignment isn't perfect it will still cut, the down side is that it can be harder to get those really cool "silent" cuts that leave the target undistubed. also thicker blades of lenticular or similar geometry tend to be more resistant to bending and twisting. so they are better for new cutters.
either way it is still the swordsman that makes the cut. a good cutter can get silent cuts with thick lenticuler blades and the rookie will still flubb with the flattened diamond. not everybody will feel the same way either. some people have geometries that just work for them for no other reason than it feels right and they understand it. so yup, as Yrx said it is subjective to a large degree but the fact of a thinner, wider blade needs better alignment than a thicker, narrower blade is pretty much tested fact. some peope swing thin, wide blades like flatened diamond and to them it feels like it sails through the air correcting itself while other people handle the same sword and for them it cuts like a baseball bat. Shadowhowler has a good example of this.
as always, your mileage may vary. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 4:13:02 GMT
Thank you, that helps a lot. I could probably learn to use a sword with the flattened diamond cross section, but I can only get one sword for now, and if I had to choose between a lenticular blade with a fuller and a flatted diamond blade (as far as aesthetics go) I would choose the fullered blade most likely. I will just go with the 1313 most likely, since it is at a very good price and it fits my standards. I could work more and possibly get a better sword, but I doubt I would have enough to get the hand and a half albion that I wanted. I would have enough for a single handed sword, but like I said, I will only have this one sword for a while. It will be at the very least and entire year before I get another sword, but I hated working this summer (let's just say that it was in 100 degree weather, and I kid you not) because of my job. So I might not get another sword until I graduate from high school. Then again, I probably won't have the money to spend on a sword in college, so it is very likely that whatever I decide on now will be what I have for the next few years.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 4:52:56 GMT
Well, the 1313 is by all accounts a very good sword and I think you will never out-grow it. I would venture to guess that it is bett than many Albion swords in performance at least. the Albions will look better in most cases. but keep your eye on the Christian Fletcher web site. their new prestige line is going to take Albion by storm I think. I sure hope it does early indications are that they are superb swords. I would expect nothing less. In fact I am buying a Prestige-line sword. I have just started talking to Mr. Fletcher about it and it sound like I'll have my new baby around March. more on this as it developes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 12:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 14:05:03 GMT
Tom, you probably have more experience than I do but I would like to add something. I think you're largely right but mostly in the world of production swords. This is going to be hard to explain on no sleep but I'll try. These are my own thoughts on the matter.
In the world of lower end swords I think sword types get twisted a bit. I believe that normally a diamond section sword would be a good bit thicker at the spine than a lenticular sword or one with a fuller. But when a company like windless makes these different sword types they're all made from the same thickness of barstock. So a type X essentially ends up with two spines that are just as thick as the single spine on type XVIII. If both our hypothetical swords are the same width than the type X will be both stiffer, heavier, and have less acute edges.
So, I'm just saying that I think cheaper production swords that are diamond section probably cut better than they would normally because they are thinner than they should be. This is also why there are barely any diamond section thrusting swords in the cheaper price ranges that are stiff enough to thrust.
So if you took a diamond section blade and ground down the spine. you would have a proper lenticular blade. It would still have it's acute edge and probably cut quite well. In reality most lenticular blades are going to make up that lost mass in width.
Don't get me wrong I think there's some truth to what you're saying but I think it probably goes farther when talking about lower end swords than better ones. I don't own any swords in the latter category so this could all be bogus.
Did that make any sense or was it all just monkey balls?
-Nutty Nathan
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 25, 2009 14:37:12 GMT
Well Nathan, I wasn't meaning to talk about sword types so much as using those types to address the issue of edege geometry and its effect.
you may be right on the money but I'm not sure it's that simple.
all I wanted to explain was the difference between thinner wide blades and thicker narrower blades and I used those geometries because the production swords I've seen have had those characteristics. I don't have a lot of experience with better quality swords, but where do we draw that line? even Albions are all made from the same thickness barstock so they would suffer from the same problem you mention, yes? I suspect Atrims would suffer that to some degree also simply from begining life as barstock and being stock-removed to a sword even though AT uses some different sizes of barstock it's still barstock. so now we are talking custom forged pieces by master smiths. I don't know much at all about those. but I would think that the extra distance a flattened diamond has from center ridge to edge would make that beval more acute than a lenticular (or any) blade which has a fuller and tends to be narrower to start with.
you have a good point but I think we are trapped talking about production swords here. I have no experience outside production models for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 15:23:31 GMT
You're definitely right about wider thinner blades cutting better than thicker more narrow blades. I just wouldn't want to generalize that to different types of cross section.
You can usually tell by a blade's profile what degree of compromise between cut and thrust it is intended to be. But almost anytime you have a diamond cross section, it means the blade is meant to have at least some thrusting ability. It may still be rather wide and thin, making it a good cutting sword but it will likely taper to a more acute point. In my experience swords with a lot of profile taper can still cut quite well but only if you cut closer to the hilt than you would with say a type X. In a real fight (when the last few inches of the blade are very important) those last few inches are going to largely dictate the function of the sword.
I could be wrong but I doubt Atrims or Albions have the issues I mentioned. You could make all your swords from the same bar stock if you just removed more thickness from the blades that should be thinner. That is, if you started with some rather thick bar stock.
I'm sure there is some truth to all of what has been said. I think you probably have more cutting experience than I do, and that means something too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 16:17:05 GMT
Kult of Athena states that for example Albion Ringeck tapers from 9mm to 3.7mm, Gallowglass from 6.1 to 2.2, Reeve from 4.3 to 2.2 and Stamford from 4 to 1.9. So what ever the stock is thick, finished swords sure aren't the same thickness.
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