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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 0:45:57 GMT
I am new to sword collecting, and the closest things to a sword that I own are two wallhangers - a black phoenix katana, and another sword that I have been unable to identify. Since I am only sixteen, I lack the sufficient funds for serious sword collecting. However, I have been working this summer and hope to accumulate enough money to purchase one real sword, as high quality as I can for however much money I will have at the end of summer (I do not know how much I will have, but at the maximum it will more than likely not exceed 700 U.S. dollars). I am particularly looking for a hand and a half sword. These tend to be common, but I am a very picky person, as those that know me well are aware of, and I am looking for certain attributes. Most importantly, I want good beater. I don't plan on cutting anything tougher than soda bottles, cardboard, and possibly light wood (small diameter tree limbs and branches), but accidents do happen. I want to rest assured that if I accidently miss my target, and hit something that is harder than my sword, that my precious weapon will be fine. I am most paranoid about the tang - I want to avoid anything other than a peened pommel at all costs, unless I think that there is no better option available. I want a design that can be used comfortably with two hands or one, is more of a slasher (I don't really like "lightweight fencing hand and a half swords", if you get my meaning) but can be used for stabbing unarmored foes, has roughly a type XIIa, XIIIa, or XVIa form, though if it varies somewhat I might be comfortable with it, and looks similar to the hand and a half swords used in the Lord of the Rings movies (like Anduril, Aragorn's ranger sword, Glamdring). I am looking for a sturdy bastard sword that is used primarily for cutting, chopping, and slashing, but possibly with a minimum efficiency at stabbing and thrusting against unarmored opponents. I was considering getting an Albion, but I have heard that while they have superior craftmanship, fit and finishing, and historical accuracy, the actual blades are not as durable as some lower-priced "beaters". I saw the customs that were made by Angus Trim, and there were some that looked absolutely beautiful, but I imagine that they are probably up in the $1000+ price range. If I did get a custom made, could I get a peened pommel and have it look like Aragorn's ranger pommel, or at least similar? Or does ATrim even make peened pommels for customs (I know that he doesn't in the regular line)? If there are any swords that you know that might match my description, I would love for you to send me the link and any additional information. For those of you that actually read this far, thank you for your time, and for helping a "rookie".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 1:06:57 GMT
~Based on all my experience with Albion's blades, they are exceptionally resilient. I really can't see how you would be unhappy owning one.
~Gus makes an excellent sword for a very reasonable price, but he has quite a backlog right now. I'm pretty sure he's not even taking custom orders for the time being.
~Check christianfletcher.com as Christian is now acting as Gus's retailer. You might like the AT1313, which is currently available for $450.
~Another option, and the easiest on the pocketbook, is Valiant Armoury's Gus Trim and Christian Fletcher designed lines. The Practical Line swords by Gus are exceptional swords for the money. If you want something a bit fancier, look into the Signature Line. It's a Gus and Christian collaboration, and just about as great as it sounds.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 1:24:24 GMT
Thank you for the assistance. I know that the Practical Line has great swords, but they look a little too much like light-weight fencing hand and a half swords than warsword-like bastards that I am looking for. The Kriegschwert looks nice, but then again it reminds me of a fancy Practical Line hand-and-a-half. My main problem with the ATrim line is the fact that the pommels are threaded and not peened.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2009 2:01:15 GMT
well from a toughness point of view you have nothing to worry about with Mr. Trim's pommels being threaded. if you don't like the look and cannot get around that then ok, but don't worry about durability. this goes for both his own line as well as the Valiant Armory practical and signature series swords. I was really against non-peened swords at first too but Mr. Trim has changed my mind. I own a practical longsword and a practical arming sword from valiant as well as a custom ATrim (customized by our own Shooter Mike) and I can tell you breaking the tang or pommel is the least of my worries. these swords are TOUGH. though please don't take that to mean you should abuse them (not saying you will). it sounds to me like you would be very happy with a Kreigswert. it's a little beefier, a war sword but still lively from what I hear. if you can swing the money a full ATrim will be a better sword. you should talk to Shooter Mike if you have questions about Atrim swords there are few people who know more about them.
hope this helps
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 19, 2009 2:29:14 GMT
I have to echo Tom's thoughts on the Gus/Tinker style pommel nuts. I look at it this way:
If you look at an Albion blade before peening, the tangs are about the same size as an ATrim or Tinker. The threads aren't deep enough to change the strength of the piece. When the peened hilts are finished you have what basically amounts to a single thread (the peen) that is about 0.050 "deep", except going outward instead of inward. With the recessed pommel nut you have about 10-15 threads that are 0.035" deep. When you add a goodly amount of red loctite to the pommel and tang assembly it is certainly possible to make an AT or Tinker hilt much more "permanent" than just about any peen.
That said, there are valid reasons to insist on a traditional peened pommel attachment. The most important to many people is, that's the way real historic originals were done. At least in the early middle ages anyway. And this is a very valid reason to demand a peened hilt sword.
As for Albion's not being as tough as any same-sized sword around... I won't buy it. I have abused the crap out of one of my Knights. It's whacked a tire pell quite a bit. It's cut heavy plastic, wood, tatami, hit a cinder block and concrete, taken fist-sized chunks of wood out of my cutting stand and even cut soft metal screws by accident. And it made the dreaded "square on edge-to-edge contact" once. It's still as sound as the day it was made. After a good blade polishing I doubt you could tell it from a brand new sword.
My best piece of advice is to study up on the swords that are generally available while you're working and earning all that money. Then by the time you have it saved up you will be in a much better position to know what you really want. At that time, you could keep your eye on the 2nd hand market and you might be able to get a lot more for your money than would otherwise be the case. Or at least you will be in a position to make an informed and wise decision.
BTW, in what general area are you located? There might be a member or two in your area that would allow you to look over their swords to get some hands-on idea of what you would like.
Just a thought. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 3:18:11 GMT
1) there is no XIVa. XIV are all arming sword sized.
2) XIIIa are great swords. They are full blown two handed weapons. XIII is a hand and a half and the XIIIb is the arming sword sized of the type.
3) Type XIII blades do not stab.
So what this means is that you want a XIIa as you are not as interested in the later more thrust oriented swords (although I really suggest you look at the XVIa more closely. It is the most cut oriented of the later era swords...well there is the mess that is the type XVIII but...but that's for another time). Anyways if you think gus blades are too wimpy looking, then your only bet is to go with overbuilt swords (rittersteel, badger blades, DSA). Just be warned that many in the collecting communities consider these swords to be SLO as well as they do not behave like a sword of their type should unless used for specific purposes (like say stage combat).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 3:43:26 GMT
Thank you for the advice, everyone. I used to think that peened pommels were so much better than threaded until I saw a post on SFI about how to remove a peened pommel. It turns out that the actual peen was very thin, and was probably less durable that a good threaded tang would have been. Based on the information that I have gathered so far, I think that I will most likely get a sword made by Albion or Angus Trim. Of course, that all depends on how much money I will have at my disposal during the time of purchase. If I don't have enough for an Albion I will be willing to settle on an ATrim. I thought about getting the 1313 model because it looks like it is pretty close to my preferences. Still, I haven't put off a custom yet. Shootermike, I hear that you know all about the ATrim line, and that you even helped someone with a custom ATrim. Is it possible that you could give me an estimate price for one?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 3:51:57 GMT
New gus arming swords run $400-450 range and longswords run around $550. You can also keep an eye out for albion/Atrim deals on myarmoury or SFI classified (less so here). There was a crecy that sold for 500 bucks not too long ago. But that will have to wait till you actually have the money .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 4:08:17 GMT
I almost forgot - I live in Donalsonville. It is in Seminole County, in the southwestern corner of GA.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2009 4:31:31 GMT
Easy Cold Napalm, DOWN BOY! they guy is new, and still wrestling with the misconceptions society has left him about what a sword should be. easy does it. . .
the simple truth is this: a sword is not the sort of thing that modern culture seems to think it is. think of Obiwan's description of a lightsaber and apply it to a sword: "not as clumsy or random as a shotgun, an elegant weapon from a more civilized time." (well I don't know if I can sell that more civilized part) but the point is: swords are elegant, their use is an ART. yes, they should not be delicate but neither are they pry-bars. there are companies that are well known for their extraordinarily tough swords like Dark Sword Armory (DSA) and Gen2 (both of which peen), but they don't satisfy a lot of true sword enthusiasts because they trade elegance, balance, and liveliness for their increadibly sturdy frames. I have cut with a DSA sword that closely resembles a Lord of the Rings sword (Andruil). it was beautiful for sure, but it was also a product of customization and not a standard model and therefore as expensive or more so than many of the swords we are mentioning here. for that price I would be apalled to get that sword when I know I could have an Atrim. but you see, that's where my opinion comes in. so far as I know the owner of that sword still likes it.
so you need to ask yourself what it is you want. you can get a performance based sword like an ATrim or Albion or even a VA signature that are all still very attractive, or you can go for a power based sword, and those can be pretty too but they WILL NOT handle the same and if you pick the wrong style for you, you will NOT be happy with your sword.
My belief is that the appearance of the sword is secondary since I want to use my swords. when I'm cutting I do not admire the sweep of the crossguard or the runes etched into the blade. no I admire the FEEL, the CUT, sometimes the ringing sound. I have a Practical Longsword from VA that is an astounding cutter but she isn't much to look at. her blade is not unscratched I have had to stitch the seam closed on her leather handle wrap because the glue was failing (I actually did a pretty goo job though), her scabbard is beaten and twisted and warped a little, the UPS guy damaged her cross guard in shipping so one side of the cross bends a little more than the other and I have been offered swords in trade for her that are ten times the beauty (and twice the price) and I have turned the offers down flat. why? because she handles like a dream come true. she cuts like a razor and hold her edge so well I don't know when I'll need to sharpen her but it's been a while. she is only 2 pounds 7 ounes and I can use her one handed or two. certainly not a point oriented dainty fencing sword, no she's a CUTTER! and I LOVE HER! she's a great sword and I would be loathe to part with her. when I first got this sword it challenged some of my concepts of what a sword should be. you see, I considered her blade to be overly flexible, maybe even whippy. so I asked questions and was told by the person I bought it from that he considered that exact sword to be, infact, very stiff. several people familiar with the model chimed in to agree: "it's rather stiff actually" it's a funny thing to have a concept like that challenged so openly and so oppositely. I still see it as flexible but certainly not in a bad way. performance changed my mind.
ok I'm rattling on here to show you how my conceptions got challenged and why I'm happy with what I have. I doubt most swords you find here would be considered "light fencing swords" So I think you can rest easy on that. also on that note to get a long sword (or hand and a half-which I think are rarer than you seem to think) that is really comfortable in one hand you will need to get a lighter sword. a War Sword will not likely be comfortable in one hand unless you are an enormous man. to me this sounds like a having cake and eating it too desire. most of the popular swords here are excellent cutters. Like Mike said, do your research, read up and heck, pull down your wall hanger and do some dry handling (carefully please) see what you like about it and don't like. this will give you a rough idea of what may work for you. we want you to be happy with whatever sword you end up getting that's why we are here. on the other hand if you save up your entire summer's pay you might be able to scrape together the little extra you would need to get one of the new Angus Trim Prestige swords like the Senachal. it's peened, it's a performance sword made by a guy who is generally considered to make some of the best production swords out there. ATrims are sturdy too. . . could be a win-win. just gotta gett o that pesky price point (that's what holds me back too)
anyway, I hope this helped somehow.
good luck, let us know how it goes, and keep asking questions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 5:27:02 GMT
Hehe that was being nice . See I gave options and everything...and I even stayed away from the minefield of confusion of the type XVIII. I like the new CF prestige line as well...but for that price I honestly would start considering customs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 6:10:38 GMT
Except for the backlog, I would suggest the ATrim Maker's Mark Triple Fuller Type XIII. And then send it to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 10:13:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 10:14:22 GMT
Copy paste the links, I still don't know how to fix these KOA links to work...
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2009 15:17:28 GMT
I've heard good things about the A&A stuff but have never had any contact with any of it. that's a good choice. I've heard good things about Del Tin too and they tend to be a little beefier as I understand it. again, I've had no contact with any Del Tin but they are also at Kult of Athena (KOA) so the OP would do good to check them out too. thanks Luka, I knew there was another brand to mention that I was forgetting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 17:06:44 GMT
Thank you all for the advice. Tom K., do you know where I can find the Senachal? If you could give me a link, that would help a lot. The Crecy does look promising. The Atrim Type XIIa - Accent Fullered, Type XIIIa Warsword, Type XIIIa - Quad Fullered, AT-1313 Type XIIa, AT-1415 Type XIIa, and AT-1566 look good.
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Post by enkidu on Jun 19, 2009 17:18:30 GMT
There's a second-hand Schloss Erbach at my armoury, worth checking it, and it has been there for quite a while so maybe the owner would be willing to deal something about the payment. Its about everything you asked for. On the other hand you ask about what might cost a customized Atrim ? I can tell you by my experience that it cost a lot I have a ATMM typeXIII like Yrx speak of, it has been customized by Christian Fletcher and it runs indeed about 1000+$, 450$ for the sword + customizations. And i dont even have a scabbard ! It is a good sword, light and fast, a wide blade, its sturdy and no fear to have about the tang or the threaded pommel. But would i spend that much again for a customized Atrim... not sure, i'm proud of it but going totally custom is i think, a better way to spend big bucks. Its still one hell of a sword by the way, looks good and nothing short of excellency performance wise ( of course, its an Atrim ! ) Oh, on a side note the quad fullered and the XIIa are so tempting ! I'm not a big fan of Albion, but maybe a Mercenary would be something you would like ( and definitly a good buy, i've been eyeing this model on and off for a while ), not only there's also one in the second-hand market ( my armoury also i think ) but you can also take profit of Albion's payment plans which would be very well suit up for your needs i think. Odinngard member here at SBG if i'm not mistaken owns one, he could give you his impressions. But personaly before going into the high-hand market i would try something cheaper, just to get the feel of a real sword and to have a better idea of what you like. A Windlass or a DSA ( which are some major steps above Ritter Steel, CN has some issues with them i think ). Windlass has by the way a version of the Erbach and there's a review of it in the appropriate section. As Tom mentionned it dont go for the DSA ranger, its looks are good, but mine is one of the lightest i've seen and its barely under the 6lbs mark... which is quite heavy ! There's a review of about every DSA sword available in the review section. Oh, and.. keep us updated on your first sword choice !
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 20, 2009 0:24:12 GMT
link to CF/AT Senachal: www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Seneschal.htmlit's a lot of money but it is a really nice sword. I can't tell you how it handles or cuts but I have a lot of faith in the Trim/Fletcher team. anything they make I would consider a good sword for somebody. it's really just a question of whether it's agood sword for you. I suspect it just might be. but ummm yeah it ain't cheap. as far as Windlass goes, I hesitate to reccomend them as I have heard a lot of complaints about their longer swords. I do have a windlass arming sword and I like it pretty well but it's nothing like and ATrim or Albion, and I expect that Del Tin and Arms and Armor will both make MUCH better swords than anything you'll get from Windlass
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2009 0:58:18 GMT
If I got a standard Atrim that originally costs $550 and get a custom pommel and maybe grip, what do you think it would cost me?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 20, 2009 1:12:18 GMT
depends on who you get to do the work. that is certainly a viable option. honestly, ATrim hilts are pretty good as they come. I would think you could get a longsword from him and not NEED to get custom hilt work though. you can always send it out for custom work AFTER you have played with it. we have a few guys right here in the forum that do pretty good custom work. I've never used their services but I would expect to pay equal to the price of the sword for an upgrade. this is just a wild guess on my part. the only way to really know is to ask one of them. ask around and see who gets reccomended. I'm not reccomending anyone because the only custom work I've had done was done by Shooter Mike and as far as I know he is not accepting commissions and the only reason I got it was as part of a trade for a sword he apparently really wanted.
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