|
Post by iflybus on Nov 20, 2023 17:46:58 GMT
Hi All,
First post and what a great place for good solid info!
I’ve been reading through the threads and see that many of you have some great knowledge regarding the various sword makers and the different methods of manufacture. My knowledge is very limited on the technical specifics of Katana manufacture and am looking for some recommendations for a high quality SHTF Katana. I would like to spend at least $1500 and up to $3000. I’ve owned a few Katana over the years in the $500 to $700 range and found they tend to be lacking in the area of tight fitment of the various components (not saying they’re all that way, just been my experience) so I want to go a bit higher end for piece of mind and just because I want a really nice sword that’s not just functional but exquisite as well.
Beyond practice and Kata the primary use purpose would be a backup to firearms if I were to find myself in the thankfully unlikely but very unfortunate position of having to bug out to go “runnin and gunnin.” Then on top of that nightmare wound up having to resort to a melee weapon. Looking for a Katana that will hold up to the outdoor elements. One that can handle getting dropped, smacked, whacked, crammed, jammed, slammed or thrown. Can cut like a boss and take metal on metal abuse through the very unlikely possibility of a dual.
My experience with a Katana is rank amateur though I am currently working on improving my skills. I have some limited formal training with beginners Iaido Kata and trained for five years in Kenpo.
I’m female, but tall, just under 6ft. I’m not that strong and prefer a faster sword on the lighter side. Also being ounces=pounds when going on foot in bugout gear since it’ll be on my pack I’d think max weight shouldn’t be more than 2.5lbs.
My forearm is about 11 inches from elbow to wrist thus I’ll want no more than a 12.5 inch Tsuka unless someone had a good reason for me to go longer.
I don’t want anything made in China regardless of quality which eliminates Hanwei.
I prefer a sori that isn’t too heavily pronounced, but not so under-pronounced it may as well be a ninjatō, lol, as the way the mechanics of my hands and arms seem to be built causes me to struggle with a smooth draw with a heavier curve. I'd say drawing from the pack would be easier with a heavier sori, but I also just don't like that style of Katana. Silly maybe but girls like what we like.
I’ve looked at the Bugei, Citadel and Thaitsuki lines but am unsure if any of these sword makers have a weapon with the parameters I’m seeking. They all look to have the styles, sori and weight ranges available but I know nothing of their practical durability.
Could some of you kind folk give me some recommendations? Insight? Thoughts? Jokes? Analysis?
Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 20, 2023 18:20:14 GMT
Welcome to the forum! So, to start things off: Personally I am unsure a katana is a good SHTF weapon, but as a backup to something else, why not. Our fellow Matthew Jensen just put up a clip on youtube where he goes about "zombie apocalypse" swords and only 1 katana was in there. Check it out, he tests these things to failure. As for the "made in China" concern, all the ones you mentioned are, in order, made in China, Cambodia and Thailand. Your price range might not be enough for a custom blade that isn't made in those countries, but you can have something that has tried and true QC. Look up "Evolution Blades". I believe they are run by a fellow forum member. I just can't recall the name right now. You can always go to a forge from China and get something bespoke. Huawei, Sinosword, Z-sey. The list is big, but you are likely to find issues at whatever price range. Lastly, back to the beginning of your question: I really can't speak to dimensions of weight of a hypothetical blade because what something seems on paper might not be how something feels. You can spend a lot more money and still not get something "just right". Besides, you may have a body motion preference right now that will change as you practice further. My 2 cents are, either Evolution Blades' Motohara line (but these are more of a martial arts tool), or save up more and get something like an L6 katana by Howard Clark (if he is still taking orders for custom work), as these have a quite good reputation for either lightweight or durability depending on how they were designed. Hope the rest of the gang chimes in since I am quite a bit rusty at the hobby. Glad to have you here!
|
|
|
Post by pellius on Nov 20, 2023 18:44:43 GMT
Welcome to the forum
|
|
|
Post by iflybus on Nov 20, 2023 18:45:14 GMT
Hi!
Thanks, no issues with something from Cambodia or Thailand at all. Just China for reasons that plunge into the realm of forbidden topics on this forum so we'll leave it at that.
I want a Katana because they're typically very light weight and can seriously cut, also the only sword type I'm comfortable with or have any skill or practiced interest in. I’m a firm believer in the ability to translate Japanese fighting techniques into something practically useful in a real-world SHTF scenario. In practicality if some type of society ending event occurred in the U.S. and I no longer had a rifle or sidearm and came to face an opponent who had no rifle or sidearm, the likelihood the bad guy would also have a high-end Katana or sword of any kind for that matter is low. This is a backup to a backup weapon. And a sword, any kind of sword for that matter, is gonna have very limited usefulness in a world gone Mad-Max truth be told. Yet having one I’m comfortable and skilled with is better than having nothing at all. Preppers mantra applies here, “better to have a tool and never need it than need a tool and not have it.”
The best overall self-defense weapon in a real SHTF scenario is undebatably a good battle rifle in the AK or AR platform. However, those require ammo, a sword requires a working set of arms. So goto is my AR, then down to a sidearm then down to a Katana then down to a Tanto then bare hands if there’s no baseball bat or good solid hunk of wood or metal within arm’s reach, lol.
Good points on weights and length.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Nov 20, 2023 18:50:44 GMT
Yeah, I don't think a Katana is the best for SHTF or a bugout bag. I'd go for something coated, like ZombieTools, Windlass Battlecry, Cold Steels Man At Arms or the APOCs. Also I'd definately want something with a spring temper. Cold Steels MAA Messer is pretty good, it's not big, but very light and cutty.
As china goes, there isn't much unless you want to go for a real japanese made sword.
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on Nov 20, 2023 19:01:46 GMT
Yeah, the China one is a big impediment. The swords from Thailand, Cambodia, the Phillipines, etc. tend to be forged in China and finished there. Maybe you could get a Korean made sword (for instance, from MAS/Butoken). Otherwise, it's Japan or one of the US/Canadian smiths that do custom work.
Almost all the swords fitted in China and elsewhere in Asia occasionally have quality control issues. For any sword you buy, you have to examine it and test it to be sure it's trustworthy. I have a $300 Ronin Dojo pro that came with lots of issues, but I've resolved them, and tested it in cutting, and I would trust it if put on the line. As mentioned before, a $3000 blade is a $500 katana blade with nicer fittings. But even a $500 katana blade can break, it comes down to how it was forged and polished. Probably only an authentic Japanese Gendaito can you trust to have been properly made and examined, and relatively trustworthy without testing.
|
|
|
Post by iflybus on Nov 20, 2023 19:06:18 GMT
Yeah, the China one is a big impediment. The swords from Thailand, Cambodia, the Phillipines, etc. tend to be forged in China and finished there. Maybe you could get a Korean made sword (for instance, from MAS/Butoken). Otherwise, it's Japan or one of the US/Canadian smiths that do custom work. Almost all the swords fitted in China and elsewhere in Asia occasionally have quality control issues. For any sword you buy, you have to examine it and test it to be sure it's trustworthy. I have a $300 Ronin Dojo pro that came with lots of issues, but I've resolved them, and tested it in cutting, and I would trust it if put on the line. As mentioned before, a $3000 blade is a $500 katana blade with nicer fittings. But even a $500 katana blade can break, it comes down to how it was forged and polished. Probably only an authentic Japanese Gendaito can you trust to have been properly made and examined, and relatively trustworthy without testing. Interesting. I had no idea about that. That's why I came here. Thank you. Gives me much to consider.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Nov 20, 2023 19:26:01 GMT
Yeah, the China one is a big impediment. The swords from Thailand, Cambodia, the Phillipines, etc. tend to be forged in China and finished there. Maybe you could get a Korean made sword (for instance, from MAS/Butoken). Otherwise, it's Japan or one of the US/Canadian smiths that do custom work. Almost all the swords fitted in China and elsewhere in Asia occasionally have quality control issues. For any sword you buy, you have to examine it and test it to be sure it's trustworthy. I have a $300 Ronin Dojo pro that came with lots of issues, but I've resolved them, and tested it in cutting, and I would trust it if put on the line. As mentioned before, a $3000 blade is a $500 katana blade with nicer fittings. But even a $500 katana blade can break, it comes down to how it was forged and polished. Probably only an authentic Japanese Gendaito can you trust to have been properly made and examined, and relatively trustworthy without testing. True, all mass producers have QC issues to some degree, but even some 3000$ swords will rattle, paying more doesn't automatically mean you won't have issues. That is unless you get a custom smith who takes pride in quality, and those are pricy.
Most of the price above like 800$ will be invested in fittings and stuff, like larason2 said. These will have more intricate fittings, more doen by hand, more expensive materials etc. There is some variation in steels, some where you will pay a lot for the blade alone, L6 bainite for example .
|
|
|
Post by iflybus on Nov 20, 2023 20:33:18 GMT
Sounds like I need to revise my spending limit and get a custom sword.
|
|
|
Post by Arlequin on Nov 20, 2023 22:21:47 GMT
So for a non Chinese made sword, and a sword you I assume you want to do hard cutting with, that's leaves out antiques obviously lol. Normally I'd suggest zsey or cloudhammer but those are still Chinese, quality withstanding.
For a 3k Budget you kinda have two options. Number one is James Raw, he is based out of South Africa. He should be able to make you a sword for under 2k, he is actually an interesting choice because he's one of the only katana smiths that works with spring steel, which is a very good steel used in making euroswords. His blades tend to be a little heavier built, but I'm a huge fan of his Shobu Zukuri swords
Your other option is Radovan, a Polish(?) Smith who very well trained and captures the nihonto aesthetic very will. He will push your budget but as long you don't get too many fancy fittings and get a monosteel blade I think $3k is still doable for him.
Before contacting them I would recommend doing a little more research on Katana so you have a better idea of what you want, like at least find a museum piece you like and copy the all the blade specs so they can a reference point to start with.
|
|
|
Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 20, 2023 23:13:25 GMT
I just thought of something. I believe Dan Keffeler (hope I spelled that right), makes some of the more absurdly durable blades out of relatively modern steels (CPM 3V and Vanadis 4E). These things are insanely strong. If made with more traditional "stouter" geometries than the competition stuff I've seen him make, they would probably be as durable as anything else in katana shape.
I'm not sure about the price range but I do believe he is in the USA and I do believe he can make a more traditional blade geometry. Getting a plasma coat or even nitriding/carbonitriding/QPQ (if the steel temper allows it) would go a long way to minimize corrosion damage over time.
I think he made a "katana-like" sword once... Super Assassin?
|
|
|
Post by BryanW on Nov 21, 2023 1:44:28 GMT
If you're going with a "prepper" mindset then this is a straight forward question. This goes along the lines of "right tool for the job" and versatility to maximize everything you are carrying.
The answer is simply that I would not recommend a katana for a SHTF bug out (or even bug in) type scenario. The maintenance is too high realistically speaking and its limited in practicality. As much as I love swords, a high end machete (or kukri or whatever style you like) would probably be superior as it can be used as a tool and the maintenance is lower such that you likely could use the same sharpening tools for your knives and not worry too much (never mind maintaining geometry, etc). It is less likely to draw as much attention as the very distinct katana and tends to weigh less.
Now, if you just want a "durable" katana just because you want one....that's a totally different story and being on a sword forum I totally get that. I still would advise getting more comfortable with training such that you know exactly what you want rather than dropping 3k on something that might not suit your style in the end (and remember custom items tend to take a long time to get so consider that a long term acquirement anyway). If you have an instructor they can probably help as well recommending measurements.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Nov 21, 2023 2:08:09 GMT
NEVER, never, ever bring a sword to a gun fight...
|
|
|
Post by blairbob on Nov 21, 2023 3:29:05 GMT
You're in the price range of something from Motohara, which are from Korea though I have heard they make the blades in SEA, but not China. I have heard the blades can be tough but not like S5/L6 Bainite tough. L6 is a pretty tough steel but they don't make bainite blades though the steel lends itself to creating bainite structures when hardened because of it's alloy composition. MAS are out of Korea though I think the swords they make are designed to cut mats not be sturdy. Same thing with Motohara to some degree but they have multiple geometries. The steels they use aren't the toughest out there (S5 from Cloudhammer seems to be besides a Howard Clark L6 that will cost you 5k for the blade alone and another few grand to mount it) Cloudhammer has blades and things made in China and other countries though they are based in Taiwan and they have a US representative in North Virginia. James Raw makes some nice stuff but I have never heard how durable they are. Same with RadoSwords. There was one thread that stated Rado uses this for swords. www.steeldata.info/std/demo/data/86.htmlLooks like a high carbon, low alloy steel. Should be sharp but not likely as tough as something like L6, 9260, S5/7, or 5160. Then again, he might be such a good smith that he makes blades tough AF out of that steel. Something I would also think about for a modern tactical use is a non traditional handle and same thing with a saya or at least build it reinforced with rattan and same or kydex (Cloudhammer made a custom tac kat with a kydex sheath once but I have no idea how much it cost) At some point in a wrapjob may come undone and while you can try to wrap it yourself, you could just go with some other handle material. Hell, you don't really need menuki but it would be good to have a kashira made out of iron (so you can use it as a blunt force contact point) If you are going with a tactical design, do they really even need a habaki? Many of the survival/tactical knife/swords are not over 1000$ and some are definitely not made in China. I would say they tend to be more katana shaped with a beveled edge. Scorpion Swords is one of these companies but most of these appear to be heavy, likely being overbuilt.
|
|
|
Post by blairbob on Nov 21, 2023 3:40:18 GMT
While we're on the topic of a SHTF sword, if SHTF, what's the likelihood the vast majority of other "bad" people are going to have the foresight to have something the length of a katana (25-35" blade long).
A blade that is 20-25" (roughly 25-32") might still be more than enough if most people have baseball bats that are 25-35" long. A longer sword might give you the range but isn't as good up close and personal within that 3' space.
Of course, you could just carry a long and short sword for that scenario besides a knife and longknife (I'd look at something like a Hissatsu, though likely made in China).
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Nov 21, 2023 3:42:47 GMT
You're in the price range of something from Motohara, which are from Korea though I have heard they make the blades in SEA, but not China. I have heard the blades can be tough but not like S5/L6 Bainite tough. L6 is a pretty tough steel but they don't make bainite blades though the steel lends itself to creating bainite structures when hardened because of it's alloy composition.MAS are out of Korea though I think the swords they make are designed to cut mats not be sturdy. Same thing with Motohara to some degree but they have multiple geometries. The steels they use aren't the toughest out there (S5 from Cloudhammer seems to be besides a Howard Clark L6 that will cost you 5k for the blade alone and another few grand to mount it) Yup...That little detail many of the chinese makers/sellers don't want you to know...Just because a sword is made of L6 steel does not mean it is a L6-bainite blade. Plan on spending $10k to get a Howard Clark blade, get it polished, mounted and an appropriate saya made.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Nov 21, 2023 9:15:05 GMT
L6 alone is just like any other mid/high carbon steel, it's all in the heat treat (I think you can apply this to S5/7 and 9260 as well, since they also seem to need a rather complicated heat treat not everyone can do). As far as I have read, this is quite the process to get right, so no wonder you'll pay through the nose for it. I doubt any of the chinese swords sold for 1000$ will have bainite and just use L6 to hike up the price. BTW, has anyone destruction tested a bainite sword yet? I have seen 9260 and it takes quite the punishment already, so I am interested. blairbob : I think the percentage of people owning swords is relatively low anyways. It's more like 1 out of 100 people has 50 swords than every other person owning one, so you are probably fine with any longer blade.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 21, 2023 13:02:51 GMT
Hmhh, you want a long bladed lightweight indestructible katana with exquisite fittings that stand the weather. I fear ... But if you find one, tell us please!
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on Nov 21, 2023 15:38:57 GMT
Haha, there's lots of opinions, and that's good! Personally, I would just get a relatively inexpensive katana and bullet proof it (you can glue it together with rice glue, nikawa/hide glue, matsuyani/pine resin if you are concerned about any part). It's helpful to also have a wakizashi, since they are useful in more circumstances (indoors, close quarters, etc.). The Japanese design was refined over a thousand years, and is meant for relatively good durability, with easy interchange of broken/damaged parts, and relatively easy care. A blade with a riveted tang can come apart, then what do you do? Wrap it up with duct tape, and keep going, but you can do that with a katana as well. Since I buy old/discarded/rusted up Japanese blades, I have gotten many with field/quick and easy retrofits and adaptations, and as I said, rice glue, nikawa and matsuyani are your friend. All are reversible, all are good at holding together various parts, and all are relatively inexpensive. There's some skill to using them all, but that can be acquired.
On the other hand though, SHTF is all about a relatively low risk of a potentially very difficult situation. Given that risk goes up the longer you are counting (since it's additive over time), it's better to get something soon. Pretty much anything of reasonable length with a sharp blade will probably do ok. Personally I would go with a lower carbon steel like 1060, since you can more easily field sharpen it.
I am also a believer that it's good to get something that works with what you were trained in. I also have done some training in kenjutsu, and so for me it makes sense to go with something Japanese style. Since I'm so used to a curve in the blade now, it's actually harder for me to draw something straight. I've also studied how to make and assemble every part, so that's not so difficult for me. A properly wrapped tsuka will not come apart in the field, and if it does, just rip the wrap off. Lots of tanto are fitted just with samegawa. It's not as comfortable, but it won't slip out of your hand. A habaki isn't necessary, but it improves the fit of the koshirae, and protects the neck of the blade (a vulnerable part, since the nakago is softer metal than the rest). Everything has pros and cons, and if it's hard to make a decision, just go with your gut and get something. SHTF is all about going with your gut and making do with less than ideal materials sometimes. As has been mentioned, the blade you have is better than the superior blade you could have gotten but didn't.
|
|
|
Post by Drunk Merchant on Nov 21, 2023 19:06:41 GMT
A cheap but light weight bolt rifle +500 rounds of ammo is honestly more useful as a survival tool since it can reliably bring food and is sort of adequate for defense. If I were going to pick a sword I would pick something in Gunto configuration since their fittings allow them to be carried in a belt. There are plenty of good, cheap type 98 Gunto replica or you could just straight buy up a showato for that. Most are actually pretty good This is what my typical weapons locker looks like btw (my pets like to sleep in it when it’s open so that’s why the fur).
|
|